BT and TalkTalk challenge Digital Economy Act

[benitez17]

What about the NSA monitoring your phone calls? NSA warrantless surveillance controversy I'm quite sure that this is going in in the UK too even if it would technically be illegal.

That is the hotly debated exception I was referring to. The government was supposed to get secret warrants, but chose not to do so in many instances, and has attempted to modify the law in their favor. I don't agree with the practice, but it is still a long way from monitoring every call for certain keywords like you suggested.

Yeah, another good example of irreconcilable rights and all it does it just prove that rights are nothing more than someone wanting something. Unless you can make it happen though it just stays wishful thinking. The side that wins that debate will be the one that can enforce their own particular right/desire. We're not born with rights. that's just a modern indulgence and at the end of the day it simply doesn't matter what you think your rights are, the gang with the biggest guns will determine what rights are actually practiced, that's their right, right?

My sister in law has two kids and has never worked a day in her life but she thinks she has the right to her council house, and her benefits and basically to live without actually contributing anything useful to society. Can you tell her that she doesn't have that right? How, would you argue that? She thinks she does, therefore she does, and our government happens to agree and they have the power to enforce it so she gets what she wants.

I don't think society should allow wants to be transformed into rights, but as you said, we don't get to make these decisions individually. We all have the option not to comply, but there are consequences for that.

[JJMcClure]

I don't think society should allow wants to be transformed into rights,

My whole point is that rights are nothing more than wants, what else could they be? Were cavemen born with the right to a good education, or to abort their babies, or to have freedom of speech? Of course not, those things didn't exist in their context, in fact back then cavemen had the right to take other people's wives if they were bigger or stronger. Aztec priests had the right to sacrifice people. The spanish inquisition had the right torture people (the CIA seem to think they have he same right). It's only since we became 'civilised' that we have time for indulgences like social housing and privacy so now we want these things we consider those to be our right too.

Rights are simply wishful thinking made real by majority action. Anything you can think of can be labled a 'right', if you want it and enough people agree with you, it's your right. Utterly meaningless unless you can enforce it.

[benitez17]

My whole point is that rights are nothing more than wants, what else could they be? Were cavemen born with the right to a good education, or to abort their babies, or to have freedom of speech? Of course not, those things didn't exist in their context, in fact back then cavemen had the right to take other people's wives if they were bigger or stronger. Aztec priests had the right to sacrifice people. The spanish inquisition had the right torture people (the CIA seem to think they have he same right). It's only since we became 'civilised' that we have time for indulgences like social housing and privacy so now we want these things we consider those to be our right too.

Rights are simply wishful thinking made real by majority action. Anything you can think of can be labled a 'right', if you want it and enough people agree with you, it's your right. Utterly meaningless unless you can enforce it.

I don't think we disagree. I believe that some rights are more fundamental than others and aren't really "wants" in the sense that they don't require the resources of others in society to support them, but rights in general are flexible and depend on society to abide by them and enforce them.

[JJMcClure]

I don't think we disagree. I believe that some rights are more fundamental than others

I think we do disagree because I don't think there's any such thing as a 'fundamental' right, they're all wants.

Let's take privacy as an example. I have some friends who lived in China for a while and they were really surprised that people there would totally ignore their right to privacy and would wander up to their house and look through their front windows at them. So presumably then privacy isn't a universal right, it's just some cultures who think it is, so really it's not then is it.

[Clinton]

I hear what you're saying, Rich, and I understand the philiosophical angle.

I feel that aside from the wants I have I'm entitled to other stuff and those are my rights. I'll tell you why they are rights rather than wants. It's because I live as part of a society and have accepted certain responsibilities. The rights I acquire are my "compensation" from that society. I also acquire rights as a result of paying taxes. Why pay tax if you're getting nothing in return?

I'm 100% with you that too many people consider social housing/benefits/privileges as rights when what they need is a kick up the backside. None of that exists where I come from - India. From my experiences there, the less "rights" you give people the more they take responsibility for their own lives.

[benitez17]

I think we do disagree because I don't think there's any such thing as a 'fundamental' right, they're all wants.

Let's take privacy as an example. I have some friends who lived in China for a while and they were really surprised that people there would totally ignore their right to privacy and would wander up to their house and look through their front windows at them. So presumably then privacy isn't a universal right, it's just some cultures who think it is, so really it's not then is it.

Enforcement of any right is definitely dependent on society. The only true fundamental right that I know of is the right to refuse to take part in an activity. The rest are up for debate.

[tke71709]

Why pay tax if you're getting nothing in return?

In return for paying your taxes you get to avoid going to prison.

JJ is saying that rights are meaningless because they are an abstract concept that can be taken away at any point. In essense, that rights flow from the barrel of a gun.

We are saying that rights exist (although different in different countries/societies) because they are enshrined in the laws which we have created to govern our societies.

The two trains shall never meet because both are valid points.

[Clinton]

In return for paying your taxes you get to avoid going to prison.

There is no connection between paying taxes and avoiding prison (except if it's tax evasion). There are some in society who pay no taxes whatsoever, they are not in prison.

But, I agree, both your points are valid.

[JJMcClure]

JJ is saying that rights are meaningless because they are an abstract concept that can be taken away at any point. In essense, that rights flow from the barrel of a gun.

Not exactly how I would have put it but close enough.

We are saying that rights exist (although different in different countries/societies) because they are enshrined in the laws which we have created to govern our societies.

This is the bit I'm not understanding, it makes me wonder if we don't agree on exactly what a right is. If rights are intrinsic then we should all have the same rights and they shouldn't differ by culture and if they do differ by culture then aren't they just laws and not rights? The Iranian government thinks it has the right, enshrined by it's own laws to stone women to death, yet 'human rights' protestors disagree arguing that no has the right to visit such a cruel punishment on a human being. Can you explain how both of these rights can co-exist and still have meaning or is someone wrong in this example, which would support the idea that rights are completely arbitrary.

[Clinton]

If rights are intrinsic....

Who gives you intrinsic rights?

For those who believe in God, these rights come down from above. For people like me all rights come from other humans - whether by law, custom or agreement.