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Thread: Hello - Another Website Buyer Here

  1. #21
    Moderator Kay is a Premium Member
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    The OP is from a new member who is exploring various options of buying websites. He's not a newbie and already has some good ideas of how to proceed. I did wonder at one stage whether or not to split the thread but I let the discussion develop. It's sometimes a pain in the backside when threads get chopped up all over the place. Whilst it's nice to keep everything in its place, sometimes it's better just to allow "normal" conversation and discussion. If anyone would like to start a new thread on any specific point, I'd welcome it - and applaud it. (Not many people have the ability to start threads so it would be a lovely new experience.)

    I take your point on the negativity - it's something that's often said against EP, not least because bullshitters usually get shot down in flames on here. In this instance, I agree. Some are seeing only negative outcomes where it just might be possible to achieve a positive one.

    Great questions for Phil, thanks for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas"
    You can read all the theory you like, but until you've actually invested your own cash and lost (or gained) from a deal, you'll never properly learn. I have read almost everything industry related over the last ~6 years and learned more from acquisitions I made personally than all of the articles and deals I've brokered (~200) put together.
    That's an interesting point, but why is it so? Because it's compatible with your style of learning? Or maybe it's that most articles, courses, and books about doing it are crap?
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  2. #22
    aka "meathead1234" Thomas is a Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kay View Post
    That's an interesting point, but why is it so? Because it's compatible with your style of learning? Or maybe it's that most articles, courses, and books about doing it are crap?
    Because the majority of people writing about it have never bought a site. If you're lucky, they may have bought one that happened to do well. The people who actually do it for a living don't blog/write about it. Unless someone has done it for a living, I will always take their advice with a pinch of salt, especially when the topic is subjective.

    DD is a VERY complicated and subjective topic. Every single site is different and there will be new issues cropping up all of the time (I can't think of a day in the last few years as a broker I haven't learned something new). So there's never going to be an exhaustive guide to DD that will make someone good at it. The *only* way to learn is to get stuck in and buy something. Not sure if it can be related to my style of learning - I read a ton of articles so I don't think it's that. I genuinely just believe DD is too subjective and dynamic to be learned without doing.

    You can certainly learn the basics, but the vast majority of scams you see on the higher end are never going to be covered by DD training. You also need to learn your comfort points as buyer - what might be considered a red flag/scammy by one buyer might not matter to you. For example, if I'm buying an Adsense site with legitimate traffic but fake Adsense screenshots then that's going to be a big issue if I'm buying it for the existing revenue, but barely relevant if I'm going to remove Adsense and monetize with my own products/services.

  3. #23
    Moderator Kay is a Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas
    I genuinely just believe DD is too subjective and dynamic to be learned without doing.
    That's exactly the conclusion I reached when researching and writing the EP Guide to Due Diligence. A guide can make you aware of the sort of thing to look out for, but it can never hope to be comprehensive - that's why the Guide strongly urges people to get their hands dirty and do their own due diligence. There's no substitute for personal experience.

    The people who actually do it for a living don't blog/write about it.
    Gotta agree with you there too. These people just get on and do it. It's the "Internet Marketers" who make a song and dance about it. And show me a "guru" who actually does anything other than marketing. We're on the same page here.

    You can certainly learn the basics, but the vast majority of scams you see on the higher end are never going to be covered by DD training.
    Yep, one learns and develops an understanding of the DD process. In which case, how useful would you rate an automated checklist which provides due diligence for a buyer?
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas
    Why has this thread been turned into a discussion on cheapo MFF sites?
    I'm not so certain the discussion -is- on cheapo sites or MFF products. I don't have a working definition for MFF, as it seems to have morphed into a catch-all phrase for sites sold in a specific marketplace. The specific type exists across the web, made for Adsense, made for affiliates, fill in the blank as builders go to marketplaces to get ideas for what's making money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas
    Surely more specific questions regarding what Phil is looking for would be more constructive (budget, skills, time commitment) rather than another unproductive thread complaining about turnkey site sellers? IMO that part of the thread should be split.
    This is a thread on buying websites; The OP has a question on buying sites. A portion of post 7 changed the tone and post 9 changed the focus.

    The OP is about buying: Many discussions about buying follow one of two directions - Either it's warnings about low priced sites or recommendations to spend half a fortune, a minimum of 6 and often 7 figures.

    That pretty much wipes out 99% of the members interested in discussing buying websites (likely including Phil?), so EP gets n00bs that know no better, brokers with high-priced businesses for sale, and business owners.

    When the zero opportunity in the middle ideology is espoused, with the greatest interest for buying businesses in this area, most visitors and members stop participating. They may go to Flippa to learn what the big sites are doing. They will come here to learn what the big owners are doing. But... They don't buy on Flippa. They don't participate here. When suggestions are beyond their reach, most give up. I have watched many a n00b receive a TMI lobotomy on EP, never to post again, with freshly minted dead-as-a-doornail dreams of some way forward in business.

    The lack of any middle ground, either do-not-buy or buy-all-in with more than a new buyer would ever be comfortable with and can safely risk, and there you have the population of an EP forum. Personally, I came here to learn how to buy - to leverage existing assets into additional income-producing assets, learned the risk was too great to buy, so ended up building instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas
    The constant negativity around here rarely offers any constructive suggestions to a first time buyer like Phil.
    Speaking truth to power isn't going to get you any thanks I find the endless grousing amusing, as it reminds me of long-gone relatives. The codgers used their retirement to sit around and lament about the good-ole-days.

    Generic warnings, cynicism does not help a business build. If everything is bad and solutions to buying money-making sites is not provided, all opportunity must therefore be dead. It's almost as if the old guard has given up on building and site acquisitions - too much work nowadays for the effort required. Once there were good deals, but no more. Solution? Roll over and die.

    I can tell you from experience that this makes an admin's job infinitely more difficult, as losing the 99% in the middle, due to their not seeing any need to explore and discuss business opportunity, results in a discussion forum with readers and without participants.

  5. #25
    Moderator Kay is a Premium Member
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    You've made some interesting points there, Ken. Please start a new thread if you want to discuss EP, its focus, and other related matters. I've already said that this discussion can run its course on this thread. So, as long as it's about buying websites it's relevant. Thanks.
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  6. #26
    aka "meathead1234" Thomas is a Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenW3 View Post
    Speaking truth to power isn't going to get you any thanks I find the endless grousing amusing, as it reminds me of long-gone relatives. The codgers used their retirement to sit around and lament about the good-ole-days.

    Generic warnings, cynicism does not help a business build. If everything is bad and solutions to buying money-making sites is not provided, all opportunity must therefore be dead. It's almost as if the old guard has given up on building and site acquisitions - too much work nowadays for the effort required. Once there were good deals, but no more. Solution? Roll over and die.

    I can tell you from experience that this makes an admin's job infinitely more difficult, as losing the 99% in the middle, due to their not seeing any need to explore and discuss business opportunity, results in a discussion forum with readers and without participants.
    Sure, I'm all for speaking the truth. But complaining about what is wrong with the industry doesn't help anyone (except saving the odd buyer from losing $$). The problem with always focusing on negatives is that the people entering the industry just quit. It's far too daunting to buy a business in the first place, especially if (perceived experience people) are telling them they will get scammed.

    I prefer to focus on practical solutions and positives. I have a sell-side client at the moment on a deal and he is consistently focusing on negatives during contact negotiations, and is almost fixated on the points of failure. While it is important to recognise risks, successful entrepreneurs (in my experience) find ways around those issues - so that is what I have been encouraging (e.g. looking at what can go right, rather than what might go wrong).

    There should be enough smart people on this forum that we can help people get their first purchase over the line rather than getting into a pi**ing contest over who can find the most $100 scams on Flippa. I'm as cynical as the next guy, but you don't grow a successful business sitting around moaning about what others are doing wrong all the time.

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  8. #27
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    I don't think it's feasible for anyone to expect something more than generic advice in a discussion like this. I do, however, believe that everyone deserves to be told the truth about Flippa listings. While I'm sure that I could do a pretty good job of looking at a specific listing on Flippa and point out to a newbie what the risks are, where a seller is either exaggerating or blatantly lying, leading someone to finding the right business to buy is much more involved and far outside the scope of a forum discussion.

    Saying that a Made For Flippa site could potentially be a good investment to the right buyer is really laughable. When someone says something like that, I believe they must not have looked at very many of those sites. There's investment potential in knockoff sites with content copied from Wikipedia and rewritten in pidgin English? Really? It's not something you can compare to other major purchases like buying a car, or house, or even a brick and mortar business. In those cases, most of what you're looking at has value. In Flippa, most of what you're looking at has no value. It's like if you're looking to buy a new home, are you going to consider a cardboard box because for the right person a cardboard box can be a home?

    I'm not saying there are zero listings on Flippa that are worth buying. I regularly buy sites on Flippa. It's the Made For Flippa ones you need to avoid. Heck, most of the other ones are problematic too, but at least you can find a gem here and there. I just don't see the point in bothering with the Made For Flippa sellers.

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  10. #28
    Top Contributor crabfoot is a Premium Member
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    Everybody has bought a Hong Kong screwdriver. Looks like a screwdriver, but bends like a banana when you try to lever off the lid of a paint can. Or the handle snaps.
    Those things were manufactured to SELL, not to be USED.

    The point about much of this discussion is that MFF sites are also made to SELL, not to be USED.

    There - that's got it in a nutshell what most people don't like about them. Then again, I've been known to buy one because I liked the domain, and I bought another to force my way into an affiliate program. And I know Ken bought one once because he wanted to use some code from the template.
    There can be reasons!

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  12. #29
    Top Contributor Dave McM is a Premium Member
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    I think this whole discussion has started to slide into a tedious semantic debate.

    Does "Made for Flippa" simply mean a site that's been made expressly to be sold on Flippa? Or does it mean a site that's been made expressly to be sold on Flippa and has no redeeming qualities whatsoever?

    I can see that there's a huge overlap. But if we're to take the second definition as the correct one, then that begs the question.

  13. #30
    Moderator Kay is a Premium Member
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    Well, thank you Mr Crabfoot. I was getting ready to post something along these lines so you saved me the hassle. Why might an MFF be attractive to someone? For the reasons you gave. But, sshh. You shouldn't buy one for your own purposes, they're 100% fraudulent.

    I am really not advising anyone to buy MFFs. All I am saying is that if you see a way how you could use one for your own purposes and you know what you're doing, then why not? I would accept that 99% are worthless, but there's always a chance that something might have value to the buyer.

    Quote Originally Posted by petertdavis
    Saying that a Made For Flippa site could potentially be a good investment to the right buyer is really laughable.
    No, it's not. If it ticks your boxes and you can get it at the right price, then why not? Give us some evidence and some real reasons instead of opinions.
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