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Thread: Hello - Another Website Buyer Here

  1. #41
    Moderator Kay is a Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton
    My advice to newcomers is to run away - get the hell out and don't even bother browsing MFF sites being sold by career sellers. If your take is different, Kay, what advice do you have for these newcomers to filter these sites?
    My advice is unchanged from earlier in the thread.

    Post 2
    Quote Originally Posted by Kay
    I like your idea to take a cautious approach to buying sites. I'm a bit like you in as much as I've mostly been a build from scratch person but I'm now thinking that acquisition is a much quicker route to business growth. In some ways it's less risky than a start-up too - if only you can get that DD right. And that's quite a big "if". But we have loads here to help you - both free and premium content.
    Post 10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kay
    I would agree that in 90+% of cases if the seller is building to sell, then avoid. These are mostly massively over-hyped clones and other rubbish. However, not all sellers do that. There are some rare examples of sellers who genuinely do build a nice little site and sell at a reasonable price without hype or ridiculous claims of potential. These can give the buyer a quicker start than going through the building process himself. The main thing is that the buyer should fully understand what he is buying, ie a website and not a business.
    Post 14
    Quote Originally Posted by Kay
    Whether something is a good investment or not depends on the buyer, how they value it, and what return they can get from it, therefore much of it depends on the price of the MFF. There have been times I've been tempted to go for one because, assuming I could get it for the price I was willing to pay, it would offer me a cheaper option to achieve something I wanted to do. I know it would be very rare to find a worthwhile MFF, but I don't think you can justify saying that something is 100% bad if you don't know the price. What's a bad investment at one price could be a good investment at another price.

    Whilst I wouldn't recommend anyone to buy an MFF, I would consider buying one myself. After all, at the right price, it might be quicker for me to buy it ready made than to build it myself from scratch. As it turns out, though, the price has never been right and the seller always had a reserve higher than I was willing to pay for the package.

    Also there's a big difference between what's a bad investment and what's fraudulent. Can you please explain why you allege that 100% of MFF listings are fraudulent? On what basis are they fraudulent?
    Post 23 - replying to Thomas about DD
    Quote Originally Posted by Kay
    That's exactly the conclusion I reached when researching and writing the EP Guide to Due Diligence. A guide can make you aware of the sort of thing to look out for, but it can never hope to be comprehensive - that's why the Guide strongly urges people to get their hands dirty and do their own due diligence. There's no substitute for personal experience.
    Post 30
    Quote Originally Posted by Kay
    I am really not advising anyone to buy MFFs. All I am saying is that if you see a way how you could use one for your own purposes and you know what you're doing, then why not? I would accept that 99% are worthless, but there's always a chance that something might have value to the buyer.
    Post 37
    Quote Originally Posted by Kay"
    Sure, I'll agree that unicorns don't exist (probably). But to say *all* MFFs are bad isn't the same thing. Most MFFs are a bad investment, especially for newbies, but they're not 100% bad nor are they 100% fraudulent. Some of us have posted in this thread to describe those rare occurrences when there is some possible value in an MFF.

    If you're saying to newbies that MFFs are usually a bad move, then I'd agree with you wholeheartedly. But that's not the sentiment in this thread. It's the negative "run away from this" attitude which IMO is misleading. It's like dumbing down the rules to suit the lowest common denominator.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kay"
    After all, it's your own valuation and DD that will help you to determine whether a site is a good investment for you or not, regardless of whether it's an MFF or any other type of site.
    In summary, my advice to newbies is to stay away from buying MFFs because the vast majority of them are dodgy. If as an investor you can get your DD right, it's possible that you might find some value in an MFF but that would be a rare occurrence. There is no substitute for personal experience when it comes to learning DD. If you can find the right site(s) to buy it can be a quicker way to achieve business growth rather than building sites yourself.

    In any case, I do not recommend that people, especially newbies, buy on Flippa. Of all the possible places to buy a website Flippa is probably the worst place to start.

    ***

    Clinton, you kindly agreed earlier to read my book before it's published. Even though it's not yet finished, I'd like you to take a look at it now and see how I'm getting on. I think you'll find that our views aren't too different - after all I learned most of what I know about this business from you.
    British Expat - helping people to live and work abroad since the year 2000.

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  2. #42
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    Kay, when you hedge your words with statements like "vast majority of them are dodgy" it leaves room for naive people to believe they can get a good deal if they just look hard enough at the Made For Flippa listings. It's just not true. It's not true that "vast majority of them are dodgy" they are ALL dodgy. There are no unicorns.

  3. #43
    Moderator Kay is a Premium Member
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    Peter, sweeping statements such as saying something is 100% fraudulent is like "telling lies to children". I think it's somewhat paternalistic and insulting to assume that people don't have the intellect to be told the facts, and give them instead advice dumbed down to suit the lowest common denominator. I think it's better to tell the facts as they are with a warning to be careful.

    This reminds me of the advice given out by the British Food Standards Agency (FSA). Rather than giving the facts and the science behind their proclamations, they give blanket cover advice to suit the dumb and dumbest of the population along the lines of advising everyone never to do something. It's easier to say don't ever do it and CYA than to explain that doing it is a bad idea in most cases, but there are rare exceptions when it's OK to do it. Rather than trust people to use their own judgement, the FSA prefers to assume that the entire population is stupid and gives advice based on that assumption.

    Whatever, the main disagreement here is your insistence on "100%". If you had said "99%" I would have agreed with you.
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  4. #44
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    If I said 99%, I would have been a liar. I have personally looked at thousands of Flippa listings. Made For Flippa sites jump right out at me. There are no unicorns among them. I don't need to do anything like "CYA" because I'm not in the business of advising people what they should and should not buy on Flippa. I'm simply speaking the truth based upon my years of personal experience.

  5. #45
    Moderator Kay is a Premium Member
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    OK, I'll go up to 99.99999% and that's my final offer in an attempt to reach agreement.
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  6. #46
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    That's a lot better than the 90% you started with,lol. I'll happily concede your point all the way if you show me that unicorn though.

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  8. #47
    Top Contributor crabfoot is a Premium Member
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    There are unicorns all over England - there is one supporting every copy of the queen's coat of arms, outside government buildings. They don't like Yankees, though - they will not move a hair if you are watching!

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  10. #48
    Moderator Kay is a Premium Member
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    That explains why Peter thinks they're not real.

    I saw a unicorn the other day but that was a dead one. Does that count? It must be real because it was on the telly. Voldemort was drinking its blood.

    Goodness knows what Phil (the OP) must think of this thread. I think this is the best intro thread we've had for ages and I hope that our discussions have been helpful.
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  11. #49
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    I'd bet Phil is getting a kick out of it. It's an interesting discussion. I'd love to get some input from other new members about this discussion and what they'd be comfortable spending for a purchase. It would be very helpful to everyone if some dormant members would come and give updates, and learn if they pursued their dreams and goals.

    The intro section is certainly an appropriate place for this thread It does help explain why discussion about buying and selling websites is so limited. Every intro thread here is a new member, with thoughts of buying a business to assist with retirement, to supplement income, to become a business owner, seeing an opportunity to further their goals. Starting a business is hard enough; Throw in bitterness towards a marketplace, sarcasm, doubt, pessimism toward opportunity, and the result of this helps members become dormant and remain employees.

    EP was started as a place to discuss buying and selling of website businesses. It appears there is nobody here experienced enough to help someone follow their goal of buying a web business at the risk levels the vast majority can apply to their venture. Maybe helping with building truly is the way forward? I do find the assertion there are no 4- and 5-figure worthwhile sites ludicrous because I have several. A store that throws off several hundred a month net is a nice supplement. Why can I build them but cannot seem to (safely) buy them anywhere?

    I'll admit to still having trouble with the demand that a buyer must have over a hundred grand to buy safely. That eliminates all but the top 1% of interested individuals. Assertion that the only way to guarantee a safe purchase is to commit to 6 and 7 figures is soul-crushing to all but this top 1% (and of that 1% even fewer would risk the capital). Few people have that line of credit and fewer still have the net worth. I'd sooner buy a dozen sites throwing off 500 net a month before I'd ever consider one site that nets 6k; Proper diversity and a better likelihood of being able to continue to service the debt would be the more prudent investment.

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  13. #50
    Administrator Clinton is a Premium Member
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    Kay, when you hedge your words with statements like "vast majority of them are dodgy" it leaves room for naive people to believe they can get a good deal if they just look hard enough at the Made For Flippa listings.
    Look hard enough and for long enough in sewage slush and there's a chance that one day you'll come across a diamond ring someone accidentally dropped. So I do see your point about 100% instead of referring to sewage as mostly-sewage-with-an-occasional-piece-of-jewellery. But I also get Kay's point about the CYA-based drivel that comes out of most public organisations nowadays.

    Kay, send your book over whenever you want. I don't mind if you have different views, BTW. Different views are good and might one day lead to someone working out a solution to finding good sites.

    EP was started as a place to discuss buying and selling of website businesses. It appears there is nobody here experienced enough to help someone follow their goal of buying a web business at the risk levels the vast majority can apply to their venture. Maybe helping with building truly is the way forward?
    Ken, it isn't that there's nobody experienced enough to help people with their goal of buying a web businesses at the lower end. At some point you'll appreciate that it's not the people with experience that's lacking, it's the opportunities. And the opportunities are lacking because of the humongous volume of noise (and "fraud") in those price brackets and the incredible number of new entrants, in those price brackets, willing to risk money on bad bets. I'm not saying the cut-off is $1M or $100K, but the higher the budget - even $10K - the better the chance of getting a business (rather than something with just the appearance of being a viable business).
    Find the right business brokers to maximise the value you extract from your business and improve the chances of selling your business.

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