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Thread: So your internet business has gone into the crapper...

  1. #11
    Publishing Mentor dsieg58 is a Premium Member
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    Here is an interesting article on the subject. I was going to use this as the basis of a blog post but what the heck, it's the weekend and I don't feel like doing an analysis of it.
    Excellent article. Timely, and on point. And unfortunately, very true.

    So, as web owners and marketers, how can we use it this info our advantage?

  2. #12
    Administrator Clinton is a Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsieg58 View Post
    But this is an example what I'm talking about and hoping this thread will produce. Other methods of marketing. Using existing marketing methods in different ways. Ideally, coming up with an entire toolbox, or arsenal of "out of the box" marketing methods which can benefit us
    I hate marketing, tweaking of marketing usually involves finding sneakier ways to part customer from his money. Why does improved marketing or out of the box marketing have to be the holy grail?

    Business has always been about finding a problem and solving it. Here's one problem and the solution:

    Problem: Teachers in school have a heavy workload.
    Solution: Create a product that reduces the workload
    Implementation: A website of resources covering the entire syllabus for each subject and including tests that individual children can take online, tests which get automatically marked, assessed, analysed and stored for recoding purposes. Children can return as often as they like and progress at their own speed or perform "homework" that the teacher has set for them (the teacher simply picks a URL and links pupils to it! The next day he gets a detailed, marked and analysed report for each child and the whole class.) Once the site is created there's very little maintenance involved.
    Marketing: Simply visit schools and show them how, for 1000 a year, all their children can have access to these resources and save their teachers thousands of hours
    Examples: DoddleLearn, AlfieCloud

    In a similar vein are websites like ePraise - monitoring and rewarding good behaviour in schools. Again, about 1000 per year. There are some big boys in this business, BTW, like Kerio and Capita, but the examples provided above are all small/tiny enterprises generating healthy profits.

    Entirely internet businesses with some basic in-person marketing, no squeeze pages, no long sales letters, no sophisticated marketing techniques. Also, no Google, no Amazon, no Apple, no eBay, no Paypal.
    Find the right business brokers to maximise the value you extract from your business and improve the chances of selling your business.

  3. #13
    Publishing Mentor dsieg58 is a Premium Member
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    Another idea: This one is more labor intensive and expensive, but it might have its uses.

    Forget about Google and go to complete video websites. Post all your (original) written content (books) for free. And sell access to well produced videos condensing the "must know" information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton
    I hate marketing, tweaking of marketing usually involves finding sneakier ways to part customer from his money.
    Your definition of marketing may be different than mine. To me, marketing is a process used to find people who may benefit from a product or service, then letting them know about what you have that may help. If offering a same (or similar) product as another business, I see marketing as a way to tell potential customers why my company may be the better choice to help them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton
    Business has always been about finding a problem and solving it.
    ...and the business which does that best will prosper -if- someone knows about it. Wouldn't that require marketing to tell others about the better product or service solution?

    I believe I am missing something in your provided example:
    1. The problem is defined.
    2. A solution is determined.
    3. The solution is created as product or service.
    4. The business markets to a demographic, which lets people know what is available.
    5. You provide two example businesses.

    Your post is a great example of the process to market the solutions available from the two businesses. What is there to dislike about this process?

    Marketing lets people know you have something that may help them. Either they buy it or they don't. I see a marketing strategy as analysis of how best to reach a demographic or how to advertise most effectively. Don't all businesses require marketing to first find then help others?

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    Moderator Kay is a Premium Member
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    I think part of the distaste about marketing is that it doesn't matter how good the product is. What matters is how well you market it. Thus a shoddy product will do better than a good one if the marketing is better.
    British Expat - helping people to live and work abroad since the year 2000.

    The joy of Internet delivery - the cartoon illustrating this will make you laugh!



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    Administrator Clinton is a Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenW3 View Post
    Your definition of marketing may be different than mine. To me, marketing is ....
    Not another what is marketing discussion, please

    My point simply is that there is too much emphasis on improving the marketing. The whole IM thing has been blown way out of proportion. Everybody seems to start with the marketing plan first, not the product. All the talk about fine tuning the long sales letter copy and getting people into a funnel nauseates me because it's pitching the relatively unsophisticated customer against a sleek, highly efficient and polished machinery that has one aim - to separate him from his money. At the extreme it's exploitative and, IMO, unethical. Even immoral. Where do we draw the line? That's up to each individual. Your typical MMO merchant has no line. I'm requesting that people consider drawing one on their marketing plan. Too many previously decent businesses now look like seedy MMO merchants (like the OP's example of Market Samurai who've associated so much with internet marketers that they've lost the plot).

    My post was in reply to dsieg58's call for new marketing ideas and I was hoping to get people to look beyond just better marketing - to identify opportunities, ideas, new services and actually work more on solving life's problems than improving their bottom line by being better than the competition at playing psychological games against people they are "seeking to help". My hope is that readers will focus first on solving problems and then look at how they are going to market what they've created rather doing it the other way around.

    In the context of our existing businesses, the same applies. How better can we serve the customer? What products or conveniences can we add to make his life easier or save him money? What new features can we offer in our existing products? I would like businesses to put those questions before "How can I improve or fine tune my marketing?"
    Find the right business brokers to maximise the value you extract from your business and improve the chances of selling your business.

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  11. #17
    Moderator Kay is a Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton
    Everybody seems to start with the marketing plan first, not the product.
    That's it in a nutshell. Read any "how to make money" product and that's exactly what they teach now. Jeff Walker, one of the most respected Internet Marketers, teaches that. He calls it the "seed launch". Start with your marketing and then develop your product. He's now blasting out emails selling his latest product, which costs nearly $2000. Some of it probably works. If I had a spare two grand I might even try it. (And I'll stand by my words here, if someone funds me to do it, then I'll take it on. I'm just floating about not doing much these days except complaining about having rats in the house.)

    ...there is too much emphasis on improving the marketing.
    But if you don't at least try a bit of marketing, then you have no chance of succeeding against those who do.

    All the talk about fine tuning the long sales letter copy and getting people into a funnel nauseates me because it's pitching the relatively unsophisticated customer against a sleek, highly efficient and polished machinery...
    And you can see these hapless people queueing up to be ground up in the sausage machine. If you dare to speak out against this process, which is obvious to some of us, you get accused of being "negative" or a hater, or slagged off as if you don't know anything. Probably you're just bitter and twisted (just like me, apparently). Bah! They have the sleek machinery to make any dissenter look bad. EP has always been an antidote to the poison but people don't want to know. Sell them pixie dust and unicorns. That's what they want to hear.
    British Expat - helping people to live and work abroad since the year 2000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton
    Not another what is marketing discussion, please
    I see this more as a discussion on integrity, morality. You detailed an ethical marketing method, but said you didn't like marketing. This was contradictory unless perspective was provided for practice of the skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton
    My post was in reply to dsieg58's call for new marketing ideas and I was hoping to get people to look beyond just better marketing <clip>
    My hope is that readers will focus first on solving problems and then look at how they are going to market what they've created rather doing it the other way around.
    I agree. Valid paragraph. ...so the process itself is not bad, but the application of the process may be used dishonestly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton
    At the extreme it's exploitative and, IMO, unethical. Even immoral.
    Agreed. There are dishonest people in my city, in cities everywhere, who would steal by any means they can devise. The internet has this, but also has honest, ethical people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton
    Your typical MMO merchant has no line.
    I disagree and also see the word, typical, as ambiguous. I would restate as: Your -new- MMO merchants don't know there is a line (and are not always being taught properly). Some (many?) are naive, uneducated, sometimes quite desperate, able to be (too easily) led into use of deceptive practices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton
    My post was in reply to dsieg58's call for new marketing ideas and I was hoping to get people to look beyond just better marketing <clip>
    My hope is that readers will focus first on solving problems and then look at how they are going to market what they've created rather doing it the other way around.
    Yes. Of course. I wouldn't suggest otherwise. I don't know anyone who isn't against marketing when used to bring harm to others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay
    But if you don't at least try a bit of marketing, then you have no chance of succeeding against those who do.
    Agreed. ...and those honest and ethical with their sales process should be better educated at the process so they succeed. Greater skills in marketing by ethical business owners could overcome the unprincipled practices used by scammers. New business owners cannot defend themselves against the unprincipled if they lack (needed) knowledge of what is being used to sell them. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a war, but people need better protection online - now more than ever before.

    I would recommend Jeff Walker. I bought and have recommended his book on Amazon. He is respected for a reason; He knows what he is doing. ...and this goes to the point I was making above. His Launch process, as developed, is neither ethical nor unethical - It is a tool. How it is used is determined by the person applying it. A hammer can be used to build and help, or it can be used to hurt someone. The process of using a hammer is not bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay
    EP has always been an antidote to the poison but people don't want to know. Sell them pixie dust and unicorns. That's what they want to hear.
    Is this mocking or cynical? My interaction with new business owners indicates People -do- want to know when they find someone they trust to properly educate them. I've met with several groups that had dozens of people that didn't know they were on the wrong paths. To a person, they all knew there was greater reward in helping, with more stable futures for their businesses.
    Last edited by KenW3; 23 November 2014 at 9:48 am.

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  14. #19
    Publishing Mentor dsieg58 is a Premium Member
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    Good points, and good posts, Ken. (Both of them) It's lost on the management here though. This thread is an excellent example of why no one wants to post on this forum anymore. The "All marketing and marketers are evil" meme on this forum is getting really old.

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    Thanks, David. Management here runs businesses, though, and every business owner does marketing. Nobody would know about them if they didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by dsieg58
    The "All marketing and marketers are evil" meme on this forum is getting really old.
    Without sales being done by somebody, the businesses would not make much money, if any. The owner's income would suffer. To truly help others, a distinction between good and bad processes should be clearly identified.

    EP is unique in terms of not being monetized, but no business survives without income to support the efforts of those running the place. Perhaps support of honesty and integrity, for those companies truly willing and able to help, could result in income for the forum?

    I've never met a business owner who doesn't want to talk about their businesses It's not as though most will communicate inside business knowledge with employees, but they most certainly do elsewhere under pseudonyms.

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