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Thread: So your internet business has gone into the crapper...

  1. #21
    Moderator Kay is a Premium Member
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    I created a new sub-forum on EP specifically for discussions about marketing and also appointed a new "Marketing Mentor". Hardly the behaviour of someone who thought that all marketing and marketers were evil (which is a mentality rather than a meme). So I think some of the criticism is misplaced.

    In any case, all of us were involved in "management" inasmuch as we had the opportunity to influence this forum. Instead of making negative comments, why not contribute something positive?

    I'd be more than happy to hear about ethical and honest uses of marketing techniques. But I've yet to find anyone who's been able to convince me that there isn't at least a hint of snake oil about what they're offering - Jeff Walker included.
    British Expat - helping people to live and work abroad since the year 2000.

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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kay
    I'd be more than happy to hear about ethical and honest uses of marketing techniques. But I've yet to find anyone who's been able to convince me that there isn't at least a hint of snake oil about what they're offering - Jeff Walker included.
    If you have a cure for a horrific disease, is it unethical to broadcast information for the service as far and as wide as possible? Is improving the marketing a more ethical solution so you can find more people you can save?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton
    Everybody seems to start with the marketing plan first, not the product.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kay
    Jeff Walker, one of the most respected Internet Marketers, teaches that. He calls it the "seed launch". Start with your marketing and then develop your product. He's now blasting out emails selling his latest product, which costs nearly $2000.
    Re:Launches - Three examples:

    What if someone realized a need for detailed, honest information about buying websites? They knew what knowledge they could share and how to write the education. The process of starting sales prior to the completion of the book, from someone running a forum and well-educated on the process began premarketing, which allowed input from interested future buyers as to subject matter they'd like to see included. Anticipation was building as the date of publication approached.

    What if someone was an alternative fuels researcher and realized he had knowledge that could benefit others. After market research, this person decided they could help others by publishing guides for the creation of algae biofuels. While the project was viewed as a series of guides yet to be written, marketing began to those most in need of knowledge on how to produce biodiesel, so they could look forward to starting the process as soon as available.

    What if someone was considering a solution for a way to have unimpeded and open discussion on the process of buying and selling websites? A market was identified, consisting of those people matching a demographic. An idea was floated out to the group as a prospective business start-up, to be a discussion forum specific to their subject of interest. This premarketing process allowed creation of a viable forum from the day it was actually launched.

    I do consider the people behind the above examples as honest and trustworthy. Why shouldn't they help as many people as possible? Following a launch process would help both themsleves and their audience. When you have a product that can truly benefit others, where is the harm in letting people know what is coming? Consider also, their input while you're finishing the product could result in your ability to provide a better, more useful product for the need you are fulfilling.

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  4. #23
    Publishing Mentor dsieg58 is a Premium Member
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    Without sales being done by somebody, the businesses would not make much money, if any.
    I'll go one further. Without sales and marketing, no business survives...period. Doing "no marketing or sales" as in the example above, like you said, is just another method of marketing and sales, and in the example above, it was simply "their" marketing plan. Different perhaps, but it is still a marketing plan and sales. Nor does the example above make the distinction that not all marketing methods work for all businesses.

    To truly help others, a distinction between good and bad processes should be clearly identified.
    I think most, if not all, businesses make that distinction, some better than others. It is a part of the company culture and ethos. If a business owner is honest and ethical, then the sales or marketing is going to be honest and ethical. The culture of dishonesty is born by those at the top. But to generalize and say that "... marketing usually involves finding sneakier ways to part customer from his money." is flat out wrong and a disservice to the many ethical business owners on this forum in my IMHO. I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be combative to the stakeholders here, but I have no other words for that state of mind. Marketing doesn't "usually" involve trickery and dreaming up ways to scam people. I've been involved in hundreds of discussions with marketing professionals, online and offline, and that was never the subject. The subject was "how to make people aware of your product or service."

    I've never met a business owner who doesn't want to talk about their businesses
    Me either. Usually it is getting them to shut up that is the problem. Business owners, and entrepreneurs, as you said elsewhere, are an opinionated and vocal group of people. They hold strong opinions and aren't afraid of voicing them. They're risk takers and willing to put their money where their mouth is.

    But they are also quick to see a lost cause, and understand losing battles better than most.

    None of the marketing ideas put forth in this thread were dishonest, unethical, or trying to scam anyone out of anything. But I notice, even after trying to bring the discussion back to its original subject twice, no one has commented on those and only when the thread was highjacked, to a topic no one was even talking about, we're back to the dark side of marketing. (Again) Which had nothing to do with this thread, and wasn't even being discussed.

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  6. #24
    Publishing Mentor dsieg58 is a Premium Member
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    why not contribute something positive?
    Read last paragraph above. I tried. Look at what happened and where you and Clinton highjacked the conversation. It wasn't me being negative.

    I'd be more than happy to hear about ethical and honest uses of marketing techniques. But I've yet to find anyone who's been able to convince me that there isn't at least a hint of snake oil about what they're offering - Jeff Walker included.
    Yet by your own admission in other threads, you didn't follow his formula. So how do you know it wouldn't have worked? I get this all the time from people on my website. They contact me and tell me my process won't work. Even though I've done it 100 times, and backed everything up with photographic proof and third party research. When I ask if they've actually tried it, then its "Well, no, but..."

    So if I extend this same line of logic to your travel blog, if I go somewhere, but never leave my hotel room, I'm in a good position to comment on that country's culture?

    How about your food blog? If I buy all the ingredients but don't make the dish, I'm in a position to pass judgement on the recipe?
    Last edited by dsieg58; 23 November 2014 at 1:21 pm.

  7. #25
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    I spent most of my working life as an employee of a large mutinational in what was then known as the Data Processing industry, in a wide variety of departments, one of which was called 'marketing'. Its remit included looking for trends and new opportunities, analysing competitors' products and the way they sold them, and creating promotional material.

    The activities that people like Clinton, Kay and I often find distasteful were carried out by departments called 'sales', but I met some superb salesmen. They made a lot of money by understanding their customers' businesses at least as well as their customers did, and proposing their own companies' products as solutions to their customers' problems or development plans. These people also acted as co-ordinators throughout the procurement, installation and (frequently) troubleshooting phases. 'Sales' comes in many flavours, starting with web funnels and automated telephone cold-calling and rising all the way up to the kind of activity I have just described.

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  9. #26
    Publishing Mentor dsieg58 is a Premium Member
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    Back to the video marketing idea: Picked up this book today: Video Marketing That Doesn't Suck - How to Market Your Business One Video at a Time (Free as I write this) this book is recommended. Very humorous and fun read as well.

    For me personally, (writing books) this could be a method (Making all my written info free, and charging for video only or some sort of hybrid model) worth looking into. The problem is, (in my case) it represents 1000's of pages of info, which would take years to put up and be a navigation nightmare once I did. Not to mention 1000's of hours necessary to produce worthwhile videos of the same material. Even though Google owns Youtube, it is run as a separate entity. It is not the same marketing animal at all.

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  11. #27
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    Downloaded it and read the first few pages. I like the style and content. But it takes a lot of practice and tuning of the way you work before you can make videos as quickly as he claims. I agree strongly with his point that decent audio is important.

  12. #28
    Publishing Mentor dsieg58 is a Premium Member
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    Yes, I agree about the audio too. There is a free program I use called "Audacity" which is better than some expensive programs. It has a noise removal function that works great. There are also some very good training videos on YouTube for it. Also, if you're using Camtasia, it also has noise removal capability that works somewhat.

    No, I also can't pump videos out as quick as he claims either. I'm also not sure I would even want to. They would be semi-poor quality. There are a lot of small details with video that you can't overlook. (Which he didn't go into)

    All in all, I thought the book was good as a primer on video marketing. He had some tricks I didn't know existed. I gave it a 5 star review on Amazon.

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  14. #29
    Senior Member TheodoreK is a Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsieg58 View Post
    There is a free program I use called "Audacity" which is better than some expensive programs. It has a noise removal function that works great.
    I'm using Audacity extensively (not for video marketing purposes) and I can vouch for its awesomeness. It's easily the best audio recording and editing software I've ever found, though I am no expert and I don't use it's most advanced functions.

  15. #30
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    I use Audacity, too - in preference to the audio editor that forms part of the video editing suite I use (AVS4you).

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