Can you sell?

[Kay]

If any of you are fans of The Apprentice or similar you'll know that Lord Sugar places a great deal of emphasis on people's ability to do sales. Yeah, I know the programme is a bit daft but it's entertaining, so I enjoy watching it.

Anyway, he insists that you have to be able to SELL to make money. Well, yes, I agree up to a point. Unfortunately, sales is not in my skill set - nor is it in Dave's (my husband and colleague). Sometimes I've even considered hiring a sales person or outsourcing this task in some kind of way.

I can do lots of things and so can Dave, but we're running a business with this huge gap in our skill sets. Maybe you don't think it matters. Maybe some of you think you can make good money online without being able to sell. I really don't know. I think I might do a bit better if was good at selling...

Mind you, I had to run a stall at a car boot sale once and despite my initial fear (yes, fear!) I was soon in my element chatting up the punters and flogging stuff like there was no tomorrow.

So, can you sell? And how much does it matter?

[Clinton]

I've argued about this till I was blue in the face in other forums. Marketing types seem to get very het up if you say that marketing isn't really necessary They'll go on and on about the difference between marketing and selling and explain that even talking to someone is selling yourself. Creating a site is apparently an act of marketing (even if it's a site never destined for human eyes).

I believe that there are many ways of making money online that involve no selling or marketing whatsoever. But that's using the dictionary definition of marketing, not the one used by Marketing Boards and Institutes of Marketing who seem to think that everything the business does is "marketing".

Some examples I give for ways to earn money online are
1. Trading currencies - you deal against a computer
2. Professional poker playing. You bluff, not sell. Er, is there a difference?
3. Professional gaming
4. Even an Adsense site, in my book, involves no selling. I simply allow others to sell on my land.

[Kay]

I love Internet Marketers - they're nearly always good for a laugh.

Here's something I saw on a forum elsewhere (para-phrased):

"I'm writing an e-Book about how to make money as an Internet Marketer. Can you tell me how to make money as an IM?"

[rmills]

... Can you tell me how to make money as an IM?"

I didn't think knowing how was a prerequisite for writing that type of ebook. At least they're trying. Not.

[benitez17]

I am not very good at selling things, but I am doing OK online. People sign up for the services offered by my site on a regular basis and my sites get plenty of visitors, so it's definitely not a requirement for success.

That said, I think strong sales skills can make doing business much easier. I'd like to improve my marketing and sales skills (I am talking about actual marketing, not what passes for marketing with the IM crowd) but haven't made the time yet. I do have a few long plane rides coming up in the next month, so maybe I should try and find a few books.

[Casey101]

I have worked a couple of different sales jobs and, apparently, I am pretty decent when it comes to sales. Not that I am bragging (it's not like I put any work into learning it, and can therefore take credit for it) but I know I would almost always do better than the average salesperson alongside me on the sales floor.

Anyway, when it comes to using that for IM, I have serious doubts as to the importance it plays. Really. As a matter of fact, I think that over time (and I know that I am going out on a limb here) the importance of a "slick sales pitch" will decrease. Yes, I know that there is a sucker born every minute and everything, but I think the internet is maturing and the way that consumers view web pages is changing.

Granted, I wasn't there, but from what I hear, door-to-door salesmen used to be much more common than they are today, and I attribute that to the fact that their industry was based almost entirely on "the good sales pitch", much like IM is today.

Following this train of thought, I believe that as a whole, the sales technique on the internet will shift from "You NEED THIS" to "Hey, by the way, when I do [task], I find [product] to be helpful, and you may too. But make up your own mind."

I suppose that what I am trying to say is, I think you have to have a knack for writing well, be open and honest with people (or at least be really good at fooling people), and be focused on adding value. Everything else is just tweaking, to get the best returns. Yes, I know that "tweaking" involves IM, but I am trying to say that that it is really not what one should focus on. And when you think about it, how much time should you spend tweaking when you could spend that same time adding value?

Feel free to throw all this out as complete rubbish, as I am the LAST person that is qualified to offer advice to you guys. I just know my experience with sales, and I know what I look for when buying on a product.

[JJMcClure]

Marketing types seem to get very het up if you say that marketing isn't really necessary They'll go on and on about the difference between marketing and selling

Why wouldn't they get het up, you're dimissing their skills as unecessary and they're quite right to point that selling isn't the same thing, it's not. If I sell a car that's selling, if I tell people I sell cars or even that I've got a car for sale, that's marketing. When you put anythhing out to a market and tell people that your'e doing that, you're marketing.

Sure there are ways to make money without doing direct marketing but that doesn't mean you can dismiss marketing out of hand. You do marketing Clinton, the reputation you've established as someone to be taken seriously in the buying/selling websites business is marketing. You've marketed your skills and you've done a great job, even I'm convinced.

You might not need to do a lot of marketing personally but that's because somewhere down the line someone has done it for you, you wouldn't be in business without it. Everyone does marketing or benefits from the marketing of others....

1. Trading currencies - you deal against a computer

No, you deal against the reputation that a currency has, it makes no difference to you if a currency gains or loses value but the reasons that it does are down to marketing by the country and by the businesses that create that country's economy.

2. Professional poker playing. You bluff, not sell. Er, is there a difference?

Playing poker involves creating a 'table image' which influences how people play against you, that's marketing, at the very least it's branding and that's part of marketing.

3. Professional gaming

The company that makes the games has marketed them or you wouldn't be playing them.

4. Even an Adsense site, in my book, involves no selling. I simply allow others to sell on my land.

The sellers are marketing themselves and you're profiting from it.

[Clinton]

The company that makes the games has marketed them or you wouldn't be playing them.

That I'm acquainted with someone who knows someone whose third cousin's first husband lived next to someone who did marketing ...does not mean that I marketed my business.

The company that made the game in the example is marketing it. If you can ride on that and make a profit you have done no marketing yourself. That makes you reliant on marketing in a roundabout way but not a marketer, which is my point. There are numerous business models where marketing skills are not needed.

Why wouldn't they get het up, you're dimissing their skills as unecessary

100%. Their skills are unnecessary for some business models. But they won't accept that because it undermines the impression they've carefully created of being indispensable to every business. I readily accept that almost all businesses need marketing and most wouldn't survive without it. But marketers feel very threatened by any suggestion that there's a business model or two that doesn't require their skills. But there are.

Playing poker involves creating a 'table image' which influences how people play against you, that's marketing, at the very least it's branding and that's part of marketing.

Marketers seem to have this habit of stretching and stretching the definition of marketing to make it more and more important. It gives them say over a wider and wider range of busines activity. Most people understand marketing to be the process by which organisations get the message of their product/service to customers. The idea of marketing is moving product. It's not about restructing finances, organising payroll, managing assets, managing facilities or negotiating with unions.

But there are definitions around that pretty much equate marketing with business. One means the other means the first one, and it's all the same thing. Depending on how much one stretches the term, yes, it could cover everything from where you are most likely to find green Martians to why toast always lands butter side down. It's all in the definition.

You've marketed your skills and you've done a great job, even I'm convinced.

I'm sure some would argue that my answering questions here ends up demonstrating my experience/expertise in some areas and that in itself is a clever plan to market me!

[hooperman]

So, can you sell? And how much does it matter?

I don't think I'm better than the average person at making a deliberate attempt to sell something (in the traditional sense). For example, I'd be crap in a car dealership. But if "selling" involved only being helpful, courteous and thoughtful, then a lot of people are good at selling without knowing it.

I don't think an inability to sell matters in some areas. You don't necessarily need sales skills to build a great content site and make loads of money with Adsense from it. In other areas selling is going to matter more, like in a car showroom.

[Clinton]

I'd like to improve my marketing and sales skills

That's a good thing in business and your business is likely to benefit from those skills.

Personally, I have a bias against marketing that borders on the obsessive. I believe it's the cause for a lot of world problems. Yes, people may need it in a particular business they're running, but looking at the wider picture marketing is a Bad Thing.

I started my life as a salesman. My first job after graduation was as a medical rep for Sandoz. I worked hard on my skills to convince doctors that, among other products, our Broxyquinoline and Brobenzoxaladine combination was the best remedy for diarrhoea. I genuinely believed it and at our monthly seminars we were pumped up with confidence on why this was the best product on the market. It was only after I left Sandoz that I realised the product had long been banned in the rest of the world as there were major problems with it. Sandoz didn't tell us that. I sold tons of the stuff and I've probably caused hundreds of thousands of kids in India permanent damage.

It's in the interest of the business that more product is sold. It doesn't matter if the product is bad for you, bad for the world. Big businesses exist to make money, not to make the world a better place. They come up with any old BS to shift product. That's why your TV ad "proves" that product X washes clothes better than product Y. Five minutes later you'll see proof that product Y washes better than product X. If you want to play in any competitive market you can't speak the truth. You can succeed only by presenting your "version" of it. There's something inherently deceptive about the whole marketing process. It's not about the best product, it's not about what's best for the customer, it's about portraying your product as the best product and making a case for why they should buy it.

I did some work recently with a debt crisis charity. Do you know the cause of over 90% of debt problems? It's people who can't afford it being convinced to buy things. You could argue that it's their own stupidity and lack of ability to manage their finances. But I don't believe that the entire blame lies with them. I live a simple life and am extremely happy with the little house I have, the 15 year old car etc. But why does the average man/woman want, want, want? The driving force behind consumerism is the cleverness and sophistication of the world's marketers. Can't afford to buy something? Take a loan. Too many loans? Come to us and we'll consolidate it (i.e. we'll give you another loan). "The more you spend, the more you save". "This ebook contains a secret guerilla plan the pros use to make millions". Big businesses often have psychologists and behaviour experts to help them not just convince the masses, but to addict them (much like the tobacco industry did many years ago).

Marketing has, at its core, exploitation of the public.

Some of the largest problems in the world today would go away if we got rid of marketers altogether. That's not ever going to happen, but if it did the world would be a much richer place, richer not in material goods or foreign holidays - we'd have a lot, lot less than we have now - but I suspect the sum total of happiness would be astronomically higher.

I hope I haven't upset members here who are full time marketers. It's not you guys I have any problem with, you're just getting on with the job. It's unlikely you'll cause the world even half the damage I caused working for Sandoz.