Kids and education and stuff

[robjones]

I have two kids and they made it thru public schools with a good education, as did I, but that is less often the case now than it once was.

At one time I'd have tried to argue the "but they need the socialization" side of this argument, but not now. Schools spend time "teaching to the test", educators jump on seriously brain-addled bandwagons, and end up having questions on Math tests somewhat like "How do you FEEL about 2 + 2 being 4?". It's all about self esteem. Educators couldnt dare correct their spelling now, that might harm the child's fragile ego.

Besides who are we to say? Maybe cat SHOULD start with a K. [Insert eye-roll here.]

When my daughter was in school I ripped a 7th grade math teacher a new backside for giving her what boiled down to a coloring assignment. I was taking geometry at that age. The teacher tried to talk down to me about how as "professional educators" they needed to have a curriculum that was inclusive of ALL class members.

[Translation: Sure your kid's smart enough to do geometry, but some of these guys have the IQ of a grapefruit so we teach at THEIR level.] Apparently accelerated classes were determined to be "noninclusive" and therefore didn't sit well with the egalitarian sensibilities of the gurus of modern education theory.

At the same time education standards are being altered to keep the kids that were NOT educated by plopping them in front of a video game at the same level as those that'd starve to death if you moved their dinner plate 6 inches to either side... teachers have been hamstrung from enforcing anything roughly resembling discipline in their own classrooms.

Where once a junior high or high school kid stayed in line if only to avoid having his backside tanned by a coach or principal... corporal punishment has been forbidden in a well intended effort to avoid children being bullied by some sadistic teacher.

The result? Kids lacking the social skills or size to avoid *real* school bullies (the kind present since the invention of the classroom) are scared to go to school. They know damned well the teachers cant do anything to stop the daily terror some of them face.

In a related case of good intentions having bad effects, schools have been turned into "gun free zones" by decree. This has been roughly as successful as it would be if you tried to disarm militants in Afghanistan by putting up signs all over the country declaring it a gun free zone. Simultaneously we have latchkey kids that spend half their life playing realistically gruesome games with zero parental supervision who increasingly decide to take out their frustrations on classmates with a firearm.

Bear in mind when I was a kid we might have a rifle in our locker cause we were going hunting after school, but there was no such thing as a "school shooting" despite our easy access to firearms. Nobody was irresponsible enough / sick enough to want to... but if they had been theyd have been cut down in their tracks before they could chamber the next shell.

Naah... I'm gonna pass on saying that the socialization in current day public schools would be something a kid cant do without. Some parents I wouldnt trust to teach a dog not to piss on the carpet, but a parent that has the desire, time, AND a brain can (and probably should) school their own children if the opportunity is there. Double that suggestion if it can be done on an international stage.

Clinton, the scenario you've described would be a marvelous opportunity, and aside from having better individualized instruction theyd have a hands-on opportunity to see and learn about the world. Sounds like a great chance for them. Go for it.

[TheodoreK]

Most of the points I had to make were already covered by many good posters above me (I exhausted my thanks button!) so I will just add my opinion with some details fueled by my personal experience with school.


First of all,
I cannot really understand how people from countries with reasonably easy curriculums (actually curricula - I know my Latin!) and no mandatory school requirements for academic education have any doubts about home schooling.
In my eyes home schooling is superior to public schooling in every damn way!


What follows is an extreme example on how and why public schools are terrible, based on my (albeit non-typical) experience:


I finished school 11 years ago in Greece.
As a person with learning disabilities (ADHD and dyslexia) I had a really terrible time at school here but sadly most kids who dream of academic education have pretty much the same problems here.

Here school is brutally difficult compared to other countries, with mandatory courses in ancient Greek language, ancient Greek history, mythology written in its original ancient Greek form(!), Latin (for some), extremely advanced mathematics where differential, transcendental and Diophantine equations are considered easy stuff, advanced organic chemistry and more.
As an example check the 3 .pdfs in this page: http://bkougioumtsiadismaths.blogspo...2009/11/3.html

The above is considered an easy maths exam in limits for 16-17 year olds.


Since school is so damn hard, for the last years of school (the equivalent of high school) most students resort in extra classes either at home, with private tutors or even in private schools just to keep up!

A sophomore or senior student in Lyceum (again, the equivalent of high school here) typically spends an extra 25-30 hours each week in private courses just to have a shot at academic education!

Most of the stuff such as ancient poetry, advanced maths, biochemistry etc is (obviously) useless and of no interest to the vast majority of the people here. Regardless, they have to go through all this to have the right to take the exams and have a shot at being accepted in a university.

Here, in the land of Aristotle and Pythagoras, you cannot set foot in a university and receive any academic education without attending our horrendously difficult public schools.



Soooooooo,
From my perspective an education based only on home schooling is just unimaginably great, like a dream come true!

I can't imagine why people from the UK, Canada etc have any doubts about home schooling their children at all! (I can understand it if the parents have financial problems though)

I know that when it's my time to raise children I will not think it twice. I will move to a more "enlightened" country and home school my children. It’s a no-brainer for me!



EDIT: Fixed lots of typos/etc, it's late here!

[tke71709]

I once owned a small school.

Was it The Derek Zoolander Center For Children Who Can't Read Good? Now that was a small school!

[tke71709]

Year on year we see increased numbers of students getting better grades at A level, more kids trying to get into university, i know some people say that exams are getting easier but maybe its schools are actually getting better at teaching our kids?

Knowing several university and college professors the answer to that seems to be a resounding no. Most of my friends in the industry (and it is an industry) lament how students come to higher education less and less prepared each year. Little in the way of learning skills, horrible grammar, bad team work skills, etc...

The truth of the matter is that there is no incentive for teachers to do anything other than push kids forwards. Back in my day kids were actually held back a year if they didn't learn, now they are just pushed to the next grade to be someone else's problem. Easier than dealing with the parents.

One crucial point which has been touched on in this thread is that there is much more to a childs development than just acedemic ability. A child needs to grow with a circle of friends and peers to learn how to act in a group, to have fun while growing up. To just be a kid.

Homeschoolers are generally very aware of this. Homeschooling doesn't mean being locked at home all day looking over textbooks or just being around mom/dad all day. Homeschooling groups organize activities where groups of homeschooled kids get together on a regular basis for field trips and the such.

[Clinton]

That's true, tke71709. I agree that they should "have fun while growing up" but I don't see how locking them in schools all day is fun. Some enjoy it (maybe partly because they know no different). What about if a kid doesn't like school, and many don't. Do they have the option of leaving? Even criminals have a choice: behave for six months and you get out. Stay good and you won't be readmitted.

Kids have no choice. No matter how well they do, how well they behave, how hard they work, they're stuck there till they're sixteen. Everybody accepts this state of affairs. I think as a society we have gone drastically wrong somewhere.

[tke71709]

I think as a society we have gone drastically wrong somewhere.

Simple, we've abdicated the responsibility of raising our children to others. Many kids today don't get taught basic manners or how to behave at home and parents expect teachers to pick up the slack.

One could argue that we've abdicated our responsibilities in general, and not just in terms of our children, but that is another thread.

[MrP]

Simple, we've abdicated the responsibility of raising our children to others.

Yes... especially true in the case of 'Nannies' and 'Boarding school'.

[Clinton]

I have been very impressed with my little girls school so far, i had a meeting there where the curriculum was explained and shown how it develops and is expanded over the first 3 years. Of course how well she learns and her strenths and weaknesses are yet to be discovered.

OK, you're all enthusiastic about school so I shouldn't be saying this, but here's what'll happen over the next year.

Your daughter will have a "baseline assessment" to see where she is now. That's so the teacher can do the statutory EYFS report at the end of the year. That report will show you in graphic form the difference from start to end of year i.e. how much she's learned.

Except that it's all fiddled. In every single school. They undervalue the child at entry to inflate the value they've added. And it's done very cleverly. My son knew his numbers into the thousands before he started school, but they don't test that. They ask the children about numbers from 1 - 10 ....and stop there. At the end of the year his EFYS report showed that he could count to 10 at the start of the year and could count to 100 by the end of the year! All the other bits of the EYFS are just as fiddled.

What's more, the school won't give you a copy of the baseline assessment now for fear you'll challenge it! They'll give it to you only at the end of the year.

During the year you'll be constantly frustrated that as her reading is improving she's not being moved up to the next level of books. At parents' evening if you raise any questions about academic stuff they'll tell you to chill - Reception is about having fun and "building social skills". Translation: We're still getting to grips with all the nightmare kids who aren't used to doing what they're told, taking care of personal hygiene or behaving properly ... so we don't have time to teach. Reception teachers don't get trained at a teacher training institute, they graduate from a police crowd control college.

What can you do to best benefit your daughter in school? As a parent who's had three kids in reception, I'd advise you to put aside all expectations of academic progress and concentrate on ensuring she's settles in and is happy during the first year. And. Choose. Her. Friends. For the next few years she's most likely to be friends with the girls you arrange play dates with.

[Trevorjc]

Thanks for the heads up on the "bassline assessment" i shall ask for it and if its refused i shall have to push for it.

To be perfectly honest my expectations of acedemic progress are not that high for the first year anyway. I think its more important she developes her social skills and becomes more outgoing.

I have been working away from home these last two weeks in Finland and now The Ukraine, i talked about schooling in Finland with collegue and was surprised that formal education in Finland starts 2 years later than the UK and its the same here in The Ukraine. They also have a physcologist in every school in the Ukraine which i found unusual.

[Clinton]

Teachers would freak at the very suggestion, but I am firmly against this emphasis on social skills in reception.

Unfortunately, I realised this only recently after my stint as a governor and after my research on cognitive and social development. Unfortunately, it was too late for my kids and all three went through the reception mill of social skill building.

Social skills, like maths skills or reading skills, come to different children at different ages. Schools take no account of personality differences. Some kids are very sociable, some are more reserved and work better alone. Some would like to make friends but have difficulty doing so. Others prefer their own company and would rather not make friends (at that age, it could change as they grow older). Schools take none of that into account. Just like with maths and english, everyone has to progress in the skills the teacher is required to push. Some of those skills are more in the school's interest than the child's - it helps the school better manage the group of disparte individuals. The more alike they all are, the easier they are to keep under control. Maybe I'm too cynical, but that's what social skills in reception seems to be all about.

The Scandinavian model is recognised the world over as one where children start much later but suffer no ill effects from that late start. In fact, Finland has the world's most successful pupils. They don't start reading till they are 7-8 (or rather they aren't forced to start reading at an early age). Here we start medicating five years olds if they're a bit behind or we send them for remedial classes. Crazy! We do our best to put our kids completely off the fun of learning.