Gotcha Flippa! You've closed another thread

[HAWK]

Guys, this has turned into a pretty heated discussion!

I made a decision regarding that particular sticky that I wouldn't have made had I seen this thread first. There was no motive on my part (I'm speaking for no one else) other than updating information. You've pointed out that I went about it the wrong way and I am happy to accept that. I now want to do what I can to make sure that the information is readily available to the people that need it.

Yet an SEO thread from 2002 (last updated in 2005) remains a sticky full of links to articles that were outdated 5 years ago...

I haven't even LOOKED at the SEO forum yet!

I'll make you a counter offer - we'll create a thread here in a neutral environment, a thread that can't get deleted or meddled with. We'll ensure it's the dog's bananas.

I appreciate the offer but I can't do that. My primary goals at the moment are to increase the quality of posting over at SP and to drive traffic. Your forum here is unquestionably superior in this niche so to direct people away from SP to here would equate to falling on my sword.

That's very kind, thank you, but seeing that you've now changed your mind about resticking it, what's the point in me editing a closed thread on page 54?

Would you consider it a compromise if I re-stuck it? (The purpose of closing it was because it was getting filled up with crap. I'm happy to re-open it as well if you think that is beneficial.)

[Clinton]

HAWK, following an exchange by PMs, and posts here and elsewhere, my answer is going to be - do what you want. Stick it back, leave it unstuck, edit it, delete it, it's your forum, do what you want. It doesn't make a difference to me or, in all probability, most readers of this thread.

OK, back to business, I've got other threads to make some posts in including catweasel's excellent idea. Any of you tried that?

[mattymcg]

Before you change the topic Clinton, I feel compelled to chime in here.

Originally I was going to don my battle armour and lunge in headfirst to back up HAWK's response to some of the accusations of dishonesty, game playing and hidden agendas etc. That kind of stuff is pretty hard to read when you're trying to make a real difference to something you believe in. And given the bollocking HAWK has received so far, it's only natural that I'd want to jump in and help her out.

But then it struck me that perhaps you guys are different. When I say "you guys," the line I'm drawing here is between those of us who don't buy and sell websites for a living, and yourselves, who do.

What occurred to me was that perhaps participating in the whole world of buying and selling websites makes you trust people less, leading to conspiracy theories and rants like the first post in this thread.

I get it—you've been burned by a dishonest seller or buyer, so next time you're more careful and less trusting. Then when it happens a few times then suddenly you're wary of everyone—every comment caught by spam was stopped for a reason; every sticky note that disappears is a deliberate ploy to propagate misinformation; an honest attempt to ask for feedback is a PR stunt. Jeepers guys, listen to yourself.

I dunno. Maybe you always were that cynical.

You guys know what kind of challenge we face with the fluff posters on the forums at SitePoint. Heck, jokes made about it formed a good number of posts in the other SitePoint thread. HAWK has addressed the other accusations that you've thrown at her pretty comprehensively IMO. So what is it I'm asking of you?

Easy. If you care about the SitePoint Forums getting better, help us out.

• Report posts that you think are rubbish. Clinton, the list of example you provided above was definitely useful. We are hoping to make the actioning of these reported posts easier for the moderators soon too.
• Be professional. Sure, let us know when we slip up, but if you really want to be helpful, do so in a constructive manner rather than a public sledging. Hopefully you can see here that we're trying our best.
• Lead by example. You guys who are more experienced are influencers. If you post a conspiracy theory based on a couple of observations, it carries more weight with the noobs than some unknown. Mob mentality kicks in and all of a sudden things get blown out of proportion. "With great power comes great responsibility." HAWK and myself are here and opening ourselves up for discourse. It might be more fun to launch a thread b!tching about something, but I'd plead with you to think it through before doing so.
• Keep on-topic. Well, on-company. I know it's difficult for some of you, but it would be massively useful if you could keep the criticisms/feedback about SitePoint and the criticisms/feedback about Flippa separate. Maybe this is unrealistic, but it sure would be useful. It's no secret that both companies are owned by the same people, but they do operate as separate companies, and the people like HAWK and myself (and Luke and Dave for Flippa) who are on the ground running things are trying to do our best. If there's reason for overlap, sure so be it. But discussions about "closed/blocked comments" on the Flippa blog that then spill into discussions about threads in the SitePoint Forums are basically unrelated. Yes, we share an office with the guys. But we don't catch up regularly. We don't discuss strategies, policies or other operational specifics. If you have a specific issue that you want fixed, muddying the waters by including both sites in the discussion just confuses things IMO.

Anyway, that's about all I've got in me before I hit the sack. I look forward to more constructive discussion, and appreciate the support from those of you who are active at SitePoint.

[tke71709]

Mattymcg,

Perhaps you should take the time to ask yourself why many of the most prolific and knowledgeable posters on SP (at least in terms of monetization, marketing, etc...) felt the need to start an entirely new forum because they were so disenchanted with the way that the Sitepoint forums were being run? This forum didn't magically come into being because of Flippa.

I have nothing but love for Hawk, but it's extremely difficult to change the course of a ship as large as SP, and it's being associated with Flippa has, perhaps unfairly, damaged the SP brand in many of our eyes but that's life. Combine that with the recent resignations of mods, the attitudes towards the current SP displayed by ex-insiders such as some who post here, and you'll see that many users have given up on trusting SP to do the right thing. Maybe they'll earn that trust back someday, maybe they won't.

[Clinton]

mattymcg, thanks for dropping in. In the early days of this forum there seemed to be a lot of ill-feeling around about Flippa. When Dave and Luke started participating regularly the most strident critics got won over and started helping Flippa with fantastic ideas and suggestions (many of which were so compelling they got implemented). That worked brilliantly as long as Flippa posted not just in the threads that said nice things about Flippa, but won people over in the threads that had criticisms.

I look forward to you, Matt, HAWK and others from SP participating in our discussions regularly to get a better feel for the issues and concerns people here have. Become our friends! I, for one, will continue posting in Sitepoint. Maybe you could start a new thread soliciting people's opinions on SP and that would attract further SP comment out of this thread and serve to assist you to get SP to where you want it to be.

[mattymcg]

it's extremely difficult to change the course of a ship as large as SP, and it's being associated with Flippa has, perhaps unfairly, damaged the SP brand in many of our eyes but that's life. Combine that with the recent resignations of mods, the attitudes towards the current SP displayed by ex-insiders such as some who post here, and you'll see that many users have given up on trusting SP to do the right thing. Maybe they'll earn that trust back someday, maybe they won't.

As you can hopefully tell, we're trying. There are obviously quite a few factors at play here, and I don't have answers for all of the issues you allude to above (I speak only for SitePoint, not for the Flippa guys). All I'm asking is that, if you care you don't jump to conclusions about stuff when something irks you. Get the full picture. I'm here and at the SitePoint Forums, and obviously so is HAWK, and you can DM either of us.

In the early days of this forum there seemed to be a lot of ill-feeling around about Flippa.

As compared to now? If you guys truly want to help, you sure do have a funny way of showing it sometimes.

Become our friends!

I do appreciate the offer Clinton, and I promise I will try to drop by and make an effort. Realistically, I struggle with making the time to participate in the SitePoint Forums, let alone engaging in other (admittedly, excellent) discussions around the web. I honestly don't know how some forum posters with off-the-charts post counts find the time for it, as my 9-5 commitments and family obligations will often win out. But I will try!

[benitez17]

mattymcg, you have a lot of theories about why people here are hard on Sitepoint, but the answer is simple (for me at least). Sitepoint (the company) has not been the same (and not in a good way) since they launched Flippa, and the only outlet for the frustration about the almost completely negative direction that the company has taken was the Sitepoint forums, until this forum was created.

Sitepoint.com has turned from a community of people who provided mostly useful information run by a company who sold some generally well received books and ran their forum pretty well into a marketing forum for Flippa and a collection of one line posts with 10 sig links because there aren't enough mods policing the forums now that the company is more focused on Flippa.

Flippa constantly pumps positive information about website flipping into Sitepoint.com which links it to Flippa, and many threads or blog comments that don't agree with the Flippa Way are deleted, blocked, locked, or buried, whether they are at Sitepoint.com or on Flippa's blog. It's a fact that can't be denied, no matter how paranoid you believe people like me to be.

You can't build a community of people with differing opinions and ideas while simultaneously trying to exploit the community as a source of revenue for your new business that made a number of controversial (to be kind) decisions when it was launched, and squashing many criticisms of that new business. If they decide to let Sitepoint.com be it's own separate site, invest the time and resources in it to keep it clean and informative, and stop linking it with Flippa, people won't associate what goes on at Flippa with Sitepoint Forums. Also, if there were some useful place to discuss Flippa at Flippa, or if Flippa support could be bothered to respond to support requests within a few days, that would also help.

I don't know HAWK outside of this forum, and I wish her luck with her quest to clean up the Sitepoint Forum. I think she is capable of doing it, and it sounds like she is being given the opportunity to succeed, though I am skeptical about that.

[HAWK]

benitez17, you make some valid points - one of them being the need to discuss Flippa at SitePoint without any censorship. I wasn't around when the things that you are all angry about happened, but this is something that Matt and I have flagged for discussion when I'm in the office next.

Thanks for your good wishes. I need them.

[Clinton]

As compared to now? If you guys truly want to help, you sure do have a funny way of showing it sometimes.

mattymcg, I suggest you research threads like this and this (there are several others). That's when both Dave and Luke had more time to play an active part here, answering questions, dealing with criticisms, asking opinions, being part of the team. I'm glad you're trying and I wish you all the best with what you want to achieve, but I reckon that we don't need to prove we want to help, we've already done that.

I do appreciate the offer Clinton, and I promise I will try to drop by and make an effort.

Excellent! I look forward to your regular participation. It's amazing what a difference you can make to people's perceptions when you engage with them.

HAWK, removing the censorship at SP would be great. But even if you did offer members some guarantees against censorship, the very fact that Sitepoint and Flippa have a common ownership will work against you. Moderating decisions could be perceived as censorship. The fact that SP and Flippa work from the same offices and must talk to each other will always leave some with suspicions of collusion (especially when the mods aren't site buyers/sellers themselves and may have to rely on Flippa's guidance). SP and I are obviously direct competitors for the discussion on the buying and selling of sites and I believe it would benefit SP if they won the punters over in a neutral forum like this. In fact, it'll probably be easier and gain both Flippa and SP more credibility if you win hearts and arguments outside the forums you both collectively control (a suggestion I made to you earlier here and in private as well).

I'll continue to post at SP and continue to be one of your most regular contributors in that section, but don't you think discussion on the buying and selling of websites sits more comfortably within other business, investing, due diligence and monetising discussions here rather than PHP and coding ones?

[tke71709]

As compared to now? If you guys truly want to help, you sure do have a funny way of showing it sometimes.

At the end of the day SP is a business trying to make money and we are people trying to make money so long as our interests coincide than that's all that we need.

I think you misunderstand our level of commitment to SP, it's a forum, nothing more, nothing less. Maybe at one point I had a sentimental attachment to SP and would have gone above and beyond to help it succeed but that ended with the launch of Flippa and the subsequent changes that came about.

Clinton is always diplomatic and talking about trying to help and I'm sure he means it but I don't think that many of us care if SP succeeds or not any more to be honest so we're just being brutally honest about our feelings among our peers. Hawk and yourself are paid employees of SP so I don't expect you to understand or even if you do to be able to say anything to that effect.