How to Buy a Website with Chris Guthrie

[akirk]

I'll tell you all what MMO course I'd like to buy... One put together by the senior members of this forum! How about it guys?

Why buy what is free here?
the danger with these courses / ebooks etc. is that they imply that you can follow a set of steps without thought effort to all end up at the same place... Aaron's perceptive point above is very pertinent... Teaching is more than just issuing the text book - it works for some students, but not for most.. Teachers inspire, cajole, push, encourage, tailor, motivate, etc... That is missing from this approach...

Alasdair

[Clinton]

The same comments you make about the wake of thousands of people dejected and frustrated could be also said for the millions of people who pay their monthly gym memberships and don't go to the gym. Those same people are frustrated with body image etc. but is it the fault of the gym for them failing to lose weight and get in shape?

Interesting analogy. Notice how gyms, unlike your local barber or butcher, charge an annual fee. Taking a new member on doesn't generate the volume of administration work to justify demanding a large up front payment. So why do they do it? Is it because they know human nature and want to get in there and exploit as much as they can while the customer's enthusiasm is at its peak?

The MMO industry operates in a similar way - taking the reader's money very quickly and getting in there within seconds to upsell, cross-sell, provide affiliate link. The exploitative mentality of getting the suckers as quickly as you can for as much as you can does seem to apply in MMO. When one chooses to operate in the MMO space one either subscribes to some of what works or fails miserably to justify the work involved in creating the product. It isn't illegal.

Most gyms produce large volumes of information on ...loosing weight, for example. However, the best way to lose weight doesn't get a mention in most gym brochures: eat less and run around your block a bit more. In fact, there have been cases of gym owners sabotaging local bike clubs and running clubs.

Most people who know a fair bit about website buying and selling recognise this site as a pretty good resource. Some would swear it's the best resource on the topic. Do you know how many ebooks and courses on website buying/site-flipping etc., mention this site? Almost none. And that's fair enough as a commercial decision. There's no money in telling people they can lose weight by running around the block a few times, there's no money in pointing people to the free stuff even if that free stuff is a resource far in excess of what any one individual "expert" can provide. So when the product creators (or "one" of the JV partners in your case) know about a free resource, it makes commercial sense to keep quiet. I understand that.

But spare me the "it's all the customer's fault if he doesn't succeed". MMO sellers, consciously or unconsciously, scupper their "students'" ability to succeed when they keep them within a closed shop instead of researching good resources and pointing them to where they can learn more. Perhaps you've done that and provided the links you feel are best. If you have, well done (though surprising as you don't seem to have come across this forum in your searches). If, OTOH, the links you've provided have been chosen for how much they earn you from affiliate programs, you have failed your reader.

Gyms are under investigation in the UK for another shady practice: unfair cancellation policies and long contracts. Some have contract terms of three years! Long signups, monthly payments by direct debit/Paypal subscription is catching on in MMO as well. Long contracts don't work across borders so MMO works instead on other principles to pluck the goose, I won't go into the details here to avoid giving people ideas.

[Clinton]

I'll tell you all what MMO course I'd like to buy... One put together by the senior members of this forum! How about it guys?

The strength of this forum lies in the ability it offers to interact on a daily basis with people of all levels of expertise. It's amazing what I've learned here from people who don't consider themselves experts.

Why ship bottles of water out when everybody is free to come and swim in the lake?

There is no cut off point between "senior" members and "junior" members. Readers make their own minds up. The Thank Yous and the green buttons are good rough indicators particularly when taken in relation to number of posts made (you'll notice there are members who've got the same level of green bars as I but whose post count is less than a tenth of mine). An even better way is to click on the poster's profile and read some more of his posts before forming an opinion of him/her.

[ChrisGuthrie]

Interesting analogy. Notice how gyms, unlike your local barber or butcher, charge an annual fee. Taking a new member on doesn't generate the volume of administration work to justify demanding a large up front payment. So why do they do it? Is it because they know human nature and want to get in there and exploit as much as they can while the customer's enthusiasm is at its peak?

The MMO industry operates in a similar way - taking the reader's money very quickly and getting in there within seconds to upsell, cross-sell, provide affiliate link. The exploitative mentality of getting the suckers as quickly as you can for as much as you can does seem to apply in MMO. When one chooses to operate in the MMO space one either subscribes to some of what works or fails miserably to justify the work involved in creating the product. It isn't illegal.

Most gyms produce large volumes of information on ...loosing weight, for example. However, the best way to lose weight doesn't get a mention in most gym brochures: eat less and run around your block a bit more. In fact, there have been cases of gym owners sabotaging local bike clubs and running clubs.

Most people who know a fair bit about website buying and selling recognise this site as a pretty good resource. Some would swear it's the best resource on the topic. Do you know how many ebooks and courses on website buying/site-flipping etc., mention this site? Almost none. And that's fair enough as a commercial decision. There's no money in telling people they can lose weight by running around the block a few times, there's no money in pointing people to the free stuff even if that free stuff is a resource far in excess of what any one individual "expert" can provide. So when the product creators (or "one" of the JV partners in your case) know about a free resource, it makes commercial sense to keep quiet. I understand that.

But spare me the "it's all the customer's fault if he doesn't succeed". MMO sellers, consciously or unconsciously, scupper their "students'" ability to succeed when they keep them within a closed shop instead of researching good resources and pointing them to where they can learn more. Perhaps you've done that and provided the links you feel are best. If you have, well done (though surprising as you don't seem to have come across this forum in your searches). If, OTOH, the links you've provided have been chosen for how much they earn you from affiliate programs, you have failed your reader.

Gyms are under investigation in the UK for another shady practice: unfair cancellation policies and long contracts. Some have contract terms of three years! Long signups, monthly payments by direct debit/Paypal subscription is catching on in MMO as well. Long contracts don't work across borders so MMO works instead on other principles to pluck the goose, I won't go into the details here to avoid giving people ideas.

Clinton, I mention plenty of free resources in anything that I'm selling. Most of what I do are videos based on what I've found to work for me though so rather than just slapping a price tag on something and when they get inside they see links to places they can go learn more (which would be pretty shitty for a buyer) - I'm teaching based on what I've learned, showing examples of websites I have that make money etc. etc. The only reason why I didn't mention your forum is because of what I said earlier (I didn't even know it existed) and as I'll mention again I didn't know because... I generally steer clear of forums because I already know how to make money and in many cases I don't learn much from the time I spend on the forum and I would rather just put the work in to actually making money with my websites rather than talking about how to make money. (For example over the last several days I've probably spent 5 - 6 hours crafting responses to people that already have their minds made up about me when I should probably just accept that regardless of what I say people are going to hate me. So I could have spent those 5 - 6 hours on a more productive project but here I am in a forum arguing with people)

Forums can provide downsides as well where people will come on to talk, ask questions and before you know it an hour or two have passed and they've used up the time they can "work" or worse, you don't know whose advice to listen to (admittedly your forum does a better job of indicating who might be worth listening to). What I'm doing with my blog is basically saying I'm not a millionaire yet, but I was able to leave my job to do this full time for a living and triple my income in the first year that I left my job (that tripling being all income from websites). So all I'm doing with my blog is saying what I'm talking about on my blog is probably worth listening to.

The trust of my readers, buyers whoever is important so I've never recommended something with an affiliate link based on the amount of money I could make from one product being greater than another. Just this month I'm going to be spending roughly $500 a month to do a case study on all of the major article marketing software services based on the quality of links I get to my test sites, rankings etc. I'm not going to let whichever program offers a higher affiliate payout cloud my judgement because my decision on which tools I"d recommend will be based on data from my own experiences. Nor do I think it's wrong for me to use an affiliate link while recommending these products. I'll spend roughly $3k for the next 90 days to try and get enough data to help prove which tools are most valueable so I don't think using an affiliate link while talking about those tools is evil.

In any case, some of the complaints people have listed about MMO in general are partly why I've actually shifted more of my focus in 2012 towards software projects because regardless of your stance about me or MMO it's easier for people to see the value in software than in information.

I've really repeated myself most of my time to all the complaints people have had about me or something related to me in this thread and because I prefer (again to actually spend my time making money, working on websites etc. rather than defending myself against people who won't change their minds) so all I can really leave this thread with is this:

People don't like MMO people because they believe they do more harm than good. Because I have a blog in this space I am automatically lumped in with everyone else and the first impressions made by the experienced people here on the forum are that I'm just like everyone else. Even if I made videos where I logged into my Adsense, Amazon, ePN, CJ, Linkshare, Escrow, Bank Accounts etc. etc. and can show people that I've made considerably more money from actually doing stuff with websites than I have from anything related to my blog many people on this forum will still think I'm a bad person for selling any of the knowledge that I've gained.

Edit: Had one final thought part of the reason why I believe people pay for information is because they can get everything packaged into one location. Sure they could go scour forums, pick up tidbits here and there or they can buy something from someone they believe to be knowledgeable instead and use that as a starting point.

[[Some posts below split to new thread - Clinton, Feb 15, 2012]]

[KenW3]

I'll tell you all what MMO course I'd like to buy... One put together by the senior members of this forum! How about it guys?

Thanks for the Bogleheads.org link! From what I know about the members of this forum, everybody is making money in different ways. There isn't any single method that the senior members of EP are following, there are dozens.

Even when the process is similar, such as eCommerce, the niches vary so much that the same techniques to profit would not apply as a standard formula to be followed. ...And on EP, given the same type of site and monetisation, the processes followed are open to argument. (That disagreement occurs here on EP often; This thread serves as a good example ) Experienced members here can either fight their corner, or agree to disagree, and this happens all the time on EP with mutual respect.

While I can test and successfully apply a method, I cannot expect others to be capable of following that method without having the same background knowledge that got me there in the first place. I've tried - free of course - with a beta to a course structure. I can count (on two hands and one toe) very few who were successful out of almost a thousand, so the product offer never made it out of beta.

EP stands alone as an exception to the other forums out there, and sharing is a culture here. When profit, and earning a living to feed your family, must be a consideration, not everyone has the luxury of indulging in providing free information. This is not, by its nature, unconscionable. Not every teacher is able to help; Those with the best of intentions cannot always provide benefit - even here.

You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you.

This place is certainly unique.

[Clinton]

The only reason why I didn't mention your forum is because of what I said earlier (I didn't even know it existed) and as I'll mention again I didn't know

Er, I know that and acknowledged it. Multiple times. I'll spell out what I suggested earlier - your JV partner knew about this forum as he's been a member since almost the start.

But I don't take any lack of link personally, you seem to think I do. If it's not this forum perhaps you pointed your readers to other good resources for learning more about buying and selling websites because, hopefully, you didn't expect them to go on a website buying spree based solely on the information you provided them. If you do share some of those links here sometime I'm sure they would benefit our typical reader.

I am automatically lumped in with everyone else and the first impressions made by the experienced people here on the forum are that I'm just like everyone else

Chris, you may be a perfectly nice guy (apart from this feeling you seem to have that we all hate your guts ), but in the cut and thrust of the MMO market you have to play the game in a certain way to win. Those legitimate measures you take - like the interview on Pat's site - wouldn't seem out of place to people who live MMO but do appear completely differently to people who don't. What are considered standard selling tactics in that market, like WSOs and the differential pricing that tke71709 pointed out, seem to be viewed with suspicion elsewhere. It doesn't help you that you're basically selling information which countless others before you have sold under the title of "site flipping" (though, strictly speaking it's not "flipping" at all). Some of the material from people like Travis (tvanslooten on these boards), Eppie (eppie) and Thomas (meathead1234) was better than others, and we don't hate those guys! But there really have been lots and lots of products in site buying/selling in the past. Do a search or two for site flipping and you'll see what I mean.

I'd say take it on the chin. Having a thick skin is a useful attribute in the MMO space.

[Clinton]

I notice Chris hasn't replied to my previous post particularly on whether he's generous with pointing his readers to good sources of free information (most MMO merchants don't as that reduces the avenues of selling them associated products via affiliate links .... and there's nothing wrong with that ).

Anyway, Chris has a new tool out call Site Finder Pro

There is the usual WSO thread etc., with the typical claims you'd expect in a WSO, but is the tool something members here would find useful?

It looks to me like this tool is essentially combining the information from the Flippa API with the kind of information you can find for free using the tools I mentioned in this post. Is that pretty much what it is? (I haven't tried it out)

[DaveR]

I notice Chris hasn't replied to my previous post particularly on whether he's generous with pointing his readers to good sources of free information (most MMO merchants don't as that reduces the avenues of selling them associated products via affiliate links .... and there's nothing wrong with that ).

Anyway, Chris has a new tool out call Site Finder Pro

There is the usual WSO thread etc., with the typical claims you'd expect in a WSO, but is the tool something members here would find useful?

It looks to me like this tool is essentially combining the information from the Flippa API with the kind of information you can find for free using the tools I mentioned in this post. Is that pretty much what it is? (I haven't tried it out)

Hi Clinton,

I just bought his SiteFinder tool to see what it's all about. For $27 I figured I had little to lose and maybe some information to gain in the process. For background, I've been buying on Flippa since 2009 and I'm not a WF member. (haha)

Your assessment is pretty spot-on. It's like an semi-advanced search that coordinates a bunch of info that you might have to click around in Flippa to get--things like bid counts, BIN, auction end date, how the site makes money (AdSense, Clickbank, and a variety of lesser known affiliate and ad network sites).

Will I consider it a go-to tool when searching Flippa auctions? Probably not, because I can get higher quality leads from an RSS feed in my browser for certain criteria, like min revenue per month, PR 1 and higher, that sort of thing. Chris' tool isn't mature enough to do that--yet. But it may in the future, since it's SaaS based (with a one-time fee).

I consider it a work in progress and one worth watching at this point, but probably not a game changer.

[KenW3]

Hi Dave, Welcome to Experienced-People.net.

I looked at the tool provided (while this offer was still open) and decided it didn't add much value. While it is great to have all the information in a single screen, with a synopsis of what is in Flippa listings, that is something I get directly from their site.

When I find something of interest that requires further evaluation, I no longer am interested in an overview and need to research specifics. If I am only looking at Flippa listings, I would rather do that directly on their site.

[Clinton]

Does anyone have any suggestions for how a tool like this could be more useful?