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    A lesson in how NOT to buy websites!

    My first foray into purchasing a website business was not the stunning success I half expected it to be.

    After signing up on flippa, reading the literature on their site and diligently watching auctions for a couple of weeks, I indulged in some bidding. I made a few bids on a couple of ‘real world’ perfect targets. Listings, that based on the claimed revenues seemed to make perfect (gulp) sense to purchase. E.g. ROI within 1-3 months. (I know the seasoned vets here are already shaking their heads)

    Reminder to myself: In the real world, buying a business, with a ROI of a couple of weeks is almost unheard of; unless one is selling large quantities of illegal substances.

    I performed ‘some’ DD on the seller. Your standard: google, yahoo, social media etc. no red lights. I asked for references and proof of the income claimed. The seller provided an Excel spreadsheet. Over USD10,000 in sales in a month! The sales had allegedly been made via a WSO. I checked WSO, and yes the product was popular. How popular? I had nothing other than his word, and a reams of those typical “I love your product, made me serious coin overnight” type rhetoric but I did have an excel spreadsheet and an endless trail of affiliates spreading the gospel about the product. This less than solid ‘proof’ of returns should have registered a huge ‘red-light’, in fact a motorcade of red flashing lights. Unfortunately, my DD was pathetic!

    Continuing on my merry way, I even did what I thought was extensive research on the product – a plugin – and test drove it. It worked and worked well. Even the reviews on the net were outstanding.

    The only other ‘red light’ that I really noted was that the seller had previously listed the site – it had sold – only to have fallen through. His reason “The buyer was a fraud”.

    At this point in time, I had unusually become my own worst enemy. In the real world, I would have asked for audited accounts, or some type of leverage. However, being new to this caper my rationale on the numbers not being ‘audited’ was that even if they were grossly inflated (think: 5 times) I would still be ok. That would still equate to a ROI in 2.5 months! And I wouldn’t be pushing illegal substances!

    The reality is that I was not doing anywhere near the DD I should have done. Nor was I qualified to be let loose on a marketplace such as flippa. Not only did I establish - the hard way - that flippa has no interest in protecting purchasers (conversely, they are only interested in protecting the sellers) but I also discovered many flaws in using Paypal (both for buyer and seller).


    Do I blame the seller?

    No. I blame myself. I was a complete wombat and a fool to accept the figures. The bottom line is that the product is good. He did a fine job on the product. The problem was that the WSO offer had ended and revenues had dried up. He knew that and he also knew the effort to get momentum back, hence why he was selling. The sellers pitch was “Go onto CB and you will make a killing on this product”. Reality is I did and no killing was made. At the end of the day, I take full responsibility for my mistakes.

    Any good news?

    In my opinion, there is always a positives in these situations. One is: I am now on a site/ forum that has provided immense learning material and surrounded me with quality people that know a thing or two about trading on the net. And it doesn’t cost a cracker!

    The product – after a lot of promotional efforts – is slowly starting to gain traction. At the current rate, it will be more like a 2 year ROI… so I will eventually get my dough back and turn a profit.

    I also learned to be very skeptical of dealing with flippa. Know their limitations and the fact that you will be hung out to dry if something goes wrong. Despite the PR they fling around, and the false sense of security they attempt to build; the reality is they will do jack shit if things go wrong!

    Based on my quick learning curve, I have since made some decent purchases and I am slowly putting together a portfolio of quality sites.


    What did I learn?

    Before you start ‘playing’ with the big boys and making bids on sites like flippa, go to forums where experts hang-out (hint, hint… the reason why I am here on EP), and learn from them. Better late than never in my case!

    Have a strategy in place where you can pay out the seller the agreed amount into escrow account and have a decent closing period to check income streams, traffic, etc. claimed. No honest seller should have an issue with this, unless of course he has misrepresented his numbers.

    Sign an agreement drafted up by a lawyer in your jurisdiction.

    Don’t let greed get in the way of solid/ proven business methodology and principals. The same ones you would apply in the real world.

    If it looks too good to be true…It usually is!

    Reminder to myself: Don’t move away from the above strategy!

    Finally, if you do screw up, don’t take it too seriously. Makes some key learnings and move forward positively.

  2. The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to hawthorn2008 For This Useful Post:

    akirk (February 21st, 2012), Clinton (February 21st, 2012), inplainview (March 2nd, 2012), JJMcClure (February 21st, 2012), JohnP (February 22nd, 2012), Kay (February 21st, 2012), KenW3 (February 21st, 2012), mark2000 (February 26th, 2012), sitemaster (February 21st, 2012), TheodoreK (February 21st, 2012), tke71709 (February 21st, 2012), Trevorjc (March 1st, 2012), visegrip (February 21st, 2012)

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    The biggest lesson learned for others here is to understand the traffic source that is driving the sales.

    You'll sometimes see people looking to dump a site/product because the sales are on a downward spiral. WSOs and JVs are the number way to get a large number of initial sales but little in the way of ongoing ones. Sometimes you'll end up buying nothing better than the ongoing support costs for the sales that the original owner made and profited from.

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    Awesome post mate.

    I'm sure there are other people here like me who learn from example and practical experience, whether it went well or badly. I get so much from stories like yours, so thanks for your valuable contribution.

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    hawthorn2008 (February 21st, 2012)

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    Wonderful contribution, I did the same exact thing only to fall victim to the snake oil sells man. My problem was the snake oil salesman was distracting me with lingo I was not knowledgeable about. I further learned the sneaky tricks to avoid by reading this site. Thanks for informing the public. Greatly appreciate.

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    Nice post, hawthorne2008!

    I find this bit interesting:
    Nor was I qualified to be let loose on a marketplace such as flippa. Not only did I establish - the hard way - that flippa has no interest in protecting purchasers...
    Now I'm going to say something in Flippa's favour, but I must emphasise I'm not on commission

    Surely it's not Flippa's responsibility to protect a purchaser against his own DD? Surely a marketplace can't get involved in telling you what's a safe purchase. What type of protection were you expecting that you didn't get and what led you to believe you'd get that protection?

    The product – after a lot of promotional efforts – is slowly starting to gain traction. At the current rate, it will be more like a 2 year ROI… so I will eventually get my dough back and turn a profit.
    Maybe we can help you speed that up if you want to start a thread providing the details and asking for suggestions.
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    Thanks Clinton. Please see my response under yours:

    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton View Post
    Nice post, hawthorne2008!

    I find this bit interesting:

    Now I'm going to say something in Flippa's favour, but I must emphasise I'm not on commission

    Surely it's not Flippa's responsibility to protect a purchaser against his own DD? Surely a marketplace can't get involved in telling you what's a safe purchase. What type of protection were you expecting that you didn't get and what led you to believe you'd get that protection?


    Maybe we can help you speed that up if you want to start a thread providing the details and asking for suggestions.
    Agree. It is NOT Flippa's responsibility to protect a purchaser. What I expected, was at least a polite answer to my E-mails when I realised that the seller was not being forthright and trying to understand if they had a mechanism to help.

    To date, (the sale was made approx. 4 months ago) I have not received even a canned "I'm sorry things are not turning out as you expected, however, under our terms and conditions (point xx/ section xxx) part of the user agreement is that we are only a marketplace and cannot get involved with transactions.... (sort of blurb).

    Their position - based on my experience - is zero, zilch, next commission cheque please!

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to hawthorn2008 For This Useful Post:

    Clinton (February 21st, 2012)

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    Hey hawthorn2008 -- I went looking back through our Support communications to find out what happened. It seems that we received two messages from you within a few hours, the second one letting us know that the issue had been fixed. That's probably why our support guys closed the ticket without responding.

    For what it's worth, I *am* sorry that things didn't turn out as expected, but we really didn't have enough information from you to help or comment either way. If it's any consolation, you'll be able to leave Site Quality feedback 6 months after purchase, where you can comment on your purchase.
    Digital marketer at Flippa.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by OLechat View Post
    Hey hawthorn2008 -- I went looking back through our Support communications to find out what happened. It seems that we received two messages from you within a few hours, the second one letting us know that the issue had been fixed. That's probably why our support guys closed the ticket without responding.

    For what it's worth, I *am* sorry that things didn't turn out as expected, but we really didn't have enough information from you to help or comment either way. If it's any consolation, you'll be able to leave Site Quality feedback 6 months after purchase, where you can comment on your purchase.
    I appreciate your apology. As stated, I am 100% to blame for the situation by not executing proper DD. In any case, I'm sure we can all learn something from this experience.

    Would a quick E-mail follow up to purchasers within 30- 60 days (by that time you know that you have been sold down the Swanee) of purchase be a concept that might benefit both seller/ buyer/ flippa? A simple rating/ comment system might be a way for you guys to 'red-flag' sellers and/or buyers that are suspect? It may help to create a safer marketplace. In my humble opinion your current six month feedback system is good but how much more damage can a dodgy seller or buyer do within that time frame?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hawthorn2008 View Post
    Would a quick E-mail follow up to purchasers within 30- 60 days (by that time you know that you have been sold down the Swanee) of purchase be a concept that might benefit both seller/ buyer/ flippa? A simple rating/ comment system might be a way for you guys to 'red-flag' sellers and/or buyers that are suspect? It may help to create a safer marketplace. In my humble opinion your current six month feedback system is good but how much more damage can a dodgy seller or buyer do within that time frame?
    Its got to be in Flippas interests to police the purchases made via their site, from what I have read in EP and elsewhere Flippa are getting a terrible reputation (I dont know if its deserved or not) and must be losing potential buyers & sellers by the bucketload.

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    hawthorn2008, before you punish yourself too much for your mistakes, I will tell you that the very nature of a site like Flippa makes it hard to do due diligence. Not impossible, just hard.

    I am an attorney and have handled some very substantial purchases and sales of internet-based companies for clients. I bought a very small website on Flippa that I thought my 23 year old son would like to take on (my first and probably biggest mistake) and could learn about internet business. The revenues were very low for the amount of claimed monthly visits, and were a clear warning signal. The seller was very cooperative both before and after the sale and gave me copies of the Awstats logs, which I studied intently. My own Awstats and Webalizer reports are generally higher than my Google Analytics reports, but not by a multiple of 20x or 30x. Because it was an auction and was closing, I had to make a decision and despite the red flags, I threw in a last bid that was a big percentage jump over what I had planned to pay, to beat another bidder by a few dollars.

    To make a long story short, the revenues were just about what the seller had said but my plan to boost them based on the non-existent traffic obviously isn't panning out. At the current rate, it would take me 10 years to make my money back.

    The good news is that it was a cheap lesson since it was a small site. My take-away from this is that the red flags are there and you have to not get so caught up in the process that you ignore them.

    By the way, as a lawyer I agree with your comment about getting a good agreement, at least if the cost is great enough to justify it. The standard Flippa contract does not do a very good job of protecting the buyer. On the other hand, a great contract is not a real solution for a bad deal. The cost of litigation and the fact that the buyer and seller are often in different jurisdictions, if not different countries, means the contractual protections that you negotiate may be effectively unavailable.

  16. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to David S For This Useful Post:

    Chabrenas (February 24th, 2012), hawthorn2008 (February 24th, 2012), Thomas (February 24th, 2012), TrustButVerify (February 24th, 2012)

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