Is website flipping still an opportunity for beginners today, or has this changed

[Clinton]

This is what I do, I don't recommend anyone else to do this and I certainly have no idea about what the MMO courses recommend.

Hey Michael, sorry if I came across as aggressive. What I meant was that by your own admission opportunities here are diminishing. That seems to contradict your claim that there's decent profit to be made.

I'm highly sceptical of claims that there are good deals to be had picking up sites on the cheap and below market value. If you are unwilling to share the methods used to find these deals, could you perhaps share some examples?

I know a couple of webmasters doing this as well.

Again, some examples would be great. The sellers of MMO programs promoting site-flipping, blogs on siteflipping etc., rely on claims like this to paint a picture of plenty of opportunity. However, I see no evidence of people making a healthy living picking up sites on the cheap ... and I know a fair few people in this industry.

As the owner of a forum talking about buying and selling websites, it's in my interest to talk this up rather than down so when I talk this down I don't do it lightly.

[DomainMagnate]

Hey Michael, sorry if I came across as aggressive. What I meant was that by your own admission opportunities here are diminishing. That seems to contradict your claim that there's decent profit to be made.

I'm highly sceptical of claims that there are good deals to be had picking up sites on the cheap and below market value. If you are unwilling to share the methods used to find these deals, could you perhaps share some examples?

no problem, Clinton. There is indeed a bit of a contradiction there, but just like in any growing profitable area of business profit margins are shrinking and opportunities are becoming more scarce. I anticipate in a couple years this will become more difficult to the point that it won't be profitable to rely on price differences arbitrage between flippa and other places for quick flips.

Same way as there were plenty of opportunities in domaining back in 2007-2008 for quick flips and that was my main source of income at that time, but a year or two later it has become incrementally more difficult to pull off profitable and low risk domain flips. Although there are still quite a few people who are successful in this and I'm familiar with a few, they work really hard and take significant risks. But if you know the market extremely well and spend a lot of time looking in different places you can find good deals. Of course the main questions is if it's worth the time and effort.

[Clinton]

there are still quite a few people who are successful in this and I'm familiar with a few, they work really hard and take significant risks. But if you know the market extremely well and spend a lot of time looking in different places you can find good deals. Of course the main questions is if it's worth the time and effort.

Maybe this is where we differ. I believe that if I spend 50 hours to find, buy, transfer, improve and then sell a $500 site for $1000 I've not made any profit and all I was paid for my time, capital and risk was a measly $10 ph. Allowing for 50% of deals to go south, I've made only $5 ph. Of course I appreciate that for some people $5, $10 or $20 ph is more than the average wage in their country so they might actually feel they were making a "profit"on these "flips".

[KenW3]

I'm highly sceptical of claims that there are good deals to be had picking up sites on the cheap and below market value. If you are unwilling to share the methods used to find these deals, could you perhaps share some examples?

I know a couple of webmasters doing this as well.

Again, some examples would be great.

Skepticism is fine. I learn every day, and that's one reason I enjoy interaction on EP. My comment was not made with the specific intent of promoting flipping types of ideas. There are always plenty of opportunities in business, and always will be. I have no right to tell you what these people told me in confidence, but they are buying sites and improving them.

I will tell you what I can do, though. I can take a physical product ecommerce site, and always get it to make more money. I don't know news. I don't know forums. I haven't run a directory. I don't know classified or dating sites yet. I make my money with ecommerce. I don't flip either, but could buy a site for a fair value - not cheap, not below market value, just fair value (not bid up by inexperienced dreamers), and improve it.

I fully expect webmasters to be buying and selling web businesses long after every member now on EP is dead and buried. ...and there will still be ways to make money buying businesses. Maybe it won't be the same type of opportunity, maybe money will be different; I don't know what the future holds, but I can certainly assure you that if businesses still exist in a hundred years, people are going to be buying them and improving them.

If I can find an ecomm site, and know how to improve it by paying fair value, is my purchase 'cheap' to me? Is it below market value given what can be added?

I remember a poll on EP titled What would you pay for a perfect site. The multiples members were willing to pay was based on their assessment of opportunity, and some selected 96x monthly. Why was that? It cannot be because 96x was ever a 'cheap' price. Is 'market value' in the eye of the beholder? If so, what does that say about abilities to buy and improve businesses?

Maybe Clinton is correct and others are correct also. Maybe he and people like Meathead1234 are playing in a different league where opportunity is scarce. Maybe it isn't worth their time to bother with a five-figure web business. Maybe the opportunity isn't in brokers? Maybe the metrics have changed? I can certainly see Clinton's point about filtering through piles of junk not being worthwhile, or low-priced sites not being worth the effort.

I still can't see where there's a big opportunity for me to snap up a site at a rock bottom price, fix it up, and then flip it. Can someone please show me where to find all these cheap sites?

The basics of the question deserves an answer. How to find sites to buy. I'll split this to a new thread titled:

How to make money finding web sites to purchase and improve

but I would suggest forgetting the word, cheap, and focus on the word, fair. It is not necessary to get a 'rock-bottom price' if you can improve what is available and keep it to make money (or sell it for a profit).

To discuss what people need to know and need to learn, I'll also post a thread titled:

What skill sets are required to make money flipping web sites

Please add your answers to these threads, but this discussion thread also remains open.

[Melissa]

I can certainly see Clinton's point about filtering through piles of junk not being worthwhile, or low-priced sites not being worth the effort.

The majority of sites are low-priced sites. Most sites sold in Flippa now seem to be on par with sites in DigitalPoint at or around the $200 mark. Would I be correct in assuming these sell primarily to those who are convinced they can make these mini-sites into profitable businesses? How many of them succeed and then resell these sites later at a higher price i.e. successful website flipping? Or is the market reliant on a flow of dreamers willing to risk a few hundred dollars?

[kencauley]

I'm not an active poster on EP forums, but I read the threads almost daily. Wanted to chime in here.

I've jumped into the 'passive income through buying passive income websites' business about three months ago. Since then, I've purchased about $30K worth of websites and probably another $20K by end of this month. I hope this trend continues. Thus far, all the sites I've purchased are producing the same incomes levels or greater than what was promoted to me from the seller. Now -- either I'm in for a rude awakening and will soon be burned, or these sites will all pay for themselves shortly and soon be ongoing passive income and significant return on my investment.

I don't consider myself a big shot or money muscle of any sort. I'm not that interested in in flipping either. But the multiples on my purchases do not require me to sit on the property for longer than a year before I see profit.

On the flip side, I've gone the path of rental real-estate. Buying websites is riskier, but exponentially easier. Both easier to get involved, find the properties, and maintenance/manage. Flipping and/or managing real-estate and rental real estate is exponentially more complicated, saturated and difficult for the 'small guy'. Personally, I think this forum post is premature. The e-industry is only in its teenage years, while rental real estate is well matured long ago.

[Kay]

I'm not an active poster on EP forums, but I read the threads almost daily.

If everyone took that attitude there wouldn't be any threads to read. I wonder how many other people just read but rarely contribute. Shouldn't people give a bit as well as take? Thanks for the opportunity to urge people to post as well as read - that's the whole point of a forum. It's intended to be for discussion and an exchange of information. Anyway, thanks for wanting to join in on this one. It's appreciated.

Getting back to the subject, if you have sites that make good passive income, then why flip them? Is it because you're scaling up to buying bigger and better ones? I don't understand why anyone would sell something that's making a nice passive income, unless they thought the niche was ready to tank or something like that. Maybe that's not what you meant, can you explain please?

[kencauley]

If everyone took that attitude there wouldn't be any threads to read. I wonder how many other people just read but rarely contribute. Shouldn't people give a bit as well as take? Thanks for the opportunity to urge people to post as well as read - that's the whole point of a forum. It's intended to be for discussion and an exchange of information. Anyway, thanks for wanting to join in on this one. It's appreciated.

Getting back to the subject, if you have sites that make good passive income, then why flip them? Is it because you're scaling up to buying bigger and better ones? I don't understand why anyone would sell something that's making a nice passive income, unless they thought the niche was ready to tank or something like that. Maybe that's not what you meant, can you explain please?

I post when I have something of value to say or add to a conversation. Sort of like real life...

Anyways, my plan is not to flip the sites but hold them. Stating my experiences thus far as the general tone of this thread is that the boom is over. Whereas my experience thus far, limited as it is (and when compared to my experience in real-estate), says otherwise.

[Kay]

I post when I have something of value to say or add to a conversation.

No need to be so modest. I'm sure you have lots of valuable things to say.

Anyways, my plan is not to flip the sites but hold them.

Ah, I see. This thread is about flipping so I was thinking along the lines that you were going to flip these passive income sites somewhere down the track.

Stating my experiences thus far as the general tone of this thread is that the boom is over. Whereas my experience thus far, limited as it is (and when compared to my experience in real-estate), says otherwise.

Again, there is some suggestion that the boom of flipping is over. To the best of my knowledge, no one suggested anything about investing in websites is over. Perhaps you could tell us by starting a new thread how you manage to find passive income websites to buy. We all love passive income when we can find it.

[kencauley]

I've ran a video game site forum with over a million registered members (not all active, lol), and over 15 years experience in internet advertising, publishing, media, etc. I had a staff of nearly twenty during the peak. No stranger to a lot of internet business, but really new building passive income through websites. Certainly not experienced enough to share a whole lot that others don't already know or can't already find in this community. My biggest advantage thus far is that I have capital to get involved in more attractive deals that are already established/proven. It certainly isn't the skill factor. Fortunately, my partner is pretty qualified in the industry, so we make a good team.

Anyways, I'll try to post more. Though, I've referred more people to this forum community than I have posts. We all contribute in different ways