What's your take on the Long Sales Letter

[mikeb]

the other thing - not mentioned...

the internet has contributed to a move towards information generally presented in bite-size chunks, when you go to a company website you don't find all their information on one long page - it is split into separate pages with a menu structure - why, so that folks can find the information they are after - the whole point of the web was a structured / linked approach to displaying data... While there are some places with long content (e.g. maybe some Wikipedia pages - though some would argue they should then be split down more) the majority of the web is not all that long...

we are therefore used to a purpose to each page - this page is about xyz - which is based on each page being a manageable quantity of information...
when we see a long page it is logical to therefore think either:
- there is a lot of information on this page - in which case, why not split it down into manageable chunks
- there is not a lot of information - in which case it is waffle / repetition / etc.

either way it is not set up for me the user...
and that is the big problem with these pages - I have yet to see anyone ever demonstrate why presenting the information in that way is useful to me the user
therefore logically it isn't
therefore I leave, because if it is not structured in that way to be useful to me - it is structured that way due to:
- arrogrance
- laziness
- being more useful to the owner - i.e. their interest is in them, not me...
all of these are a big turn off!


I would hope that we will see a move on the internet to websites which are geared around the user - not the owner... the only reason for not pitching to suit the user is that might lead to less income for the owner - which makes me as a user not interested

Alasdair

It is an interesting question.

Reality is "usability metrics" are often are in negative correlation with "conversion metrics". "usability metrics" are also completely superficial and subjective. Where conversion metrics are goal oriented.

The more you make people able to click away, the more they will. It is hard to know whether that helped the user or hindered him.

It is also true that from many SEO points of view, short bite size content actually harms SEO. Fewer words mean less engagement, less value of content seen by google. It seems to me there are horses and courses. Twitter and facebook are for short bite size pieces pointing to places such as web and video that actually contain the useful stuff. ie the valuable crosslinkages are often outside the site.

There is an old rule, I think applies. It is impossible to make a letter too long, only too boring.

Here for example is an extremely long page that is not a sales letter, but I cannot think it would be improved by separating posts, either from an SEO or a user experience.

It is interesting too.
http://imimpact.com/new-rules-of-seo/

Even 15 minute videos would need a massive sales letter to cover all the content, and that is well over an hour..

I cannot help but feel, this thread is judging long sales letters on the basis of the worst of their genre.

Frankly - If I am parting with £1000+ I want to know everything there is to know about what I get for my money. If you want to ask for £1000 you cannot do it on the back of a postcard, UNLESS it is a proven brand, and if the brand is not proven , then the sales letter has to provide all the proof, all the detail of what it is, and answer all objections.

[mikeb]

I am not necessarily arguing that they capture only the weak minded...
but... the fact that someone is clearly intelligent / qualified / professional in one field does not logically mean that they can't be weak-minded / naive / etc. in another...

Alasdair

You do assume that they have a higher correlation with the weakminded, and there is little evidence to support that.

The reason I raise that particular list is the repeat buyer aspect.

Repeat buyers have a high correlation with satisfied customer for whom whatever they bought fulfilled the expectations for it.

The essential point here, is that LSL proved to be a reasonable vehicle for communicating what they get for your money, as witness they come back for more.

I personally find it irritating if I have to search for information splattered across many pages, with a buy button disconnected from the information.

[crabfoot]

The "weak minded" argument simply does not stack up.

I think I agree with Mike on that, and I think I'm coming to some sort of concept as to why "we here" have trouble understanding what is going on within this sales pitch.

Bear with me, this is a recollection, not an accurate true memory -

Somebody once did some work relating to the ability to "visualize" the outcome of a situation. Present people with a bunch of facts, and see if they can give an impression of the outcome.

A small number of people, somewhere between 12% and 20%, were able to intuitively visualize a fairly accurate impression of the likely outcome. A few more were able to partially visualize the likely outcome. The majority, around 65% of people, were unable to visualize what would happen, and needed to be "stepped through" an analytical process before they could work out what would happen.

The same work showed that the minority with "visualizing ability" were more likely to end up in decision-making positions than the non-visualizers, and that non-visualizers placed in positions of responsibility take comparatively longer to make decisions, and need to perform more analysis before the decisions are made.

My hypothesis is that we, who cannot see why "the pitch" works, are members of the "visualizing minority".

We cannot see why "the pitch" works because we CAN visualize that the probable outcome of buying is less likely to be the effective solutions predicted by the blurb, and more likely to be a "hole in the wallet".

Those people that buy the product do so because they have trouble with assembling together ideas, concepts and tools, then cannot visualize a way of combining them to make a "coherent something". They hope the product will provide them with a way past their "mental block" and let them make a "coherent something".

I'm pretty sure this is not the full story, but I think it is a step forward.

[akirk]

It is an interesting question.

Reality is "usability metrics" are often are in negative correlation with "conversion metrics". "usability metrics" are also completely superficial and subjective. Where conversion metrics are goal oriented.

The more you make people able to click away, the more they will. It is hard to know whether that helped the user or hindered him.

It is also true that from many SEO points of view, short bite size content actually harms SEO. Fewer words mean less engagement, less value of content seen by google. It seems to me there are horses and courses. Twitter and facebook are for short bite size pieces pointing to places such as web and video that actually contain the useful stuff. ie the valuable crosslinkages are often outside the site.

There is an old rule, I think applies. It is impossible to make a letter too long, only too boring.

Here for example is an extremely long page that is not a sales letter, but I cannot think it would be improved by separating posts, either from an SEO or a user experience.

It is interesting too.
http://imimpact.com/new-rules-of-seo/

Even 15 minute videos would need a massive sales letter to cover all the content, and that is well over an hour..

I cannot help but feel, this thread is judging long sales letters on the basis of the worst of their genre.

Frankly - If I am parting with £1000+ I want to know everything there is to know about what I get for my money. If you want to ask for £1000 you cannot do it on the back of a postcard, UNLESS it is a proven brand, and if the brand is not proven , then the sales letter has to provide all the proof, all the detail of what it is, and answer all objections.

Usability can definitely be measured - just needs different tools to measure it.
Plenty of companies out there who will work with a business to measure usability - whether it is layouts of a store - a brochure - or a website.

There is an old rule, I think applies. It is impossible to make a letter too long, only too boring.

would feel that we need to quantify this - the issue is not length - it is un-necessary length
if the point has been made once - get on with it - it does not need to be made another 5 times...

and the reality is that the majority of these that I have seen - and I have stumbled across far too many - deliberately obfuscate the points...
I have no issue with long documents - I would happily read a 600 page academic paper which is succinct and to the point - with precis / structured content / examples / evidence / conclusions / bibliographies / etc. - length is not the issue - I would not happily read that same 600 page paper if in fact the paper has only one point and dances around the issue - trying to show more value with un-necessary length...

lets have an exercise on here - to take examples of these LSLs and distill them down to the shortest text we can without losing the points being made... i.e. the absolute minimum distillation of their text
I would guess they would become rather a lot shorter...

so the issue isn't the length per se - it is the style of writing / layout designed to keep returning to the same point - without ever quite making it - because the seller knows that making the point simply and succinctly will show rather less substance than can be implied by the lengthy meaningless drivel they can post instead

I am sure that if we look at print we have all seen those 'cheap adverts' in the back of the Sunday supplements - for memory systems / cheap shoes (claiming to be handmade in Nottingham!) / how I made £1 trillion in a week and you can do the same / etc. - they all follow this same format - now compare those against adverts by Nike / Bentley / Asprays / Apple / etc. etc. - just a touch simpler...

have a look at: www.huwandgary.com (it is not selling you anything - it is a portfolio of a couple of ad guys - just happens to be a website I did)
that is an example of top level advertising by major international companies - we can assume I think that they are highly successful adverts - yet none of them follow this format - why? simply because they have something clear to sell... and the punter wants it...

In my view - the LSL format is used because it is more successful in converting in situations where there is a less robust offer
where the product is good / established brand / meets an obvious need - this format is not needed - simplicity is the name of the game...
where in all the advertising carried on our websites do advertisers ask for an area 980px x 40,000px? they don't - they get their message across in an area perhaps 900px x 150px - because they have a product / offer which can be summarised in that space...

so, the space is not being used as the best mechanism for the user
where a product / offer is good, vastly less space is needed
therefore the reason for a LSL is to confuse / obscure / hide the real detail until you have committed in some way...

there is no need to cover the content of a 15 minute video - if you can't summarise your offer in 6 lines you haven't got a coherent offer - or you have a coherent offer, but if the punter knew the real offer they might not buy!

so - yes, they might be more successful - for offers which are undefined / vague / unlikely / etc. - but clearly not in the real world for crisp / simple / powerful offers which manage in far smaller spaces - therefore the mere existence of such an approach tells me a lot about the offer...

perhaps the British Public needs educating!

Alasdair

[Chabrenas]

I cannot help but feel, this thread is judging long sales letters on the basis of the worst of their genre.

Frankly - If I am parting with £1000+ I want to know everything there is to know about what I get for my money. If you want to ask for £1000 you cannot do it on the back of a postcard, UNLESS it is a proven brand, and if the brand is not proven , then the sales letter has to provide all the proof, all the detail of what it is, and answer all objections.

But that's the point, isn't it. How many long sales letters have you seen that are packed with relevant information? You're far more likely to find that in a proper website.

[mikeb]

Usability can definitely be measured - just needs different tools to measure it.
Plenty of companies out there who will work with a business to measure usability - whether it is layouts of a store - a brochure - or a website.



would feel that we need to quantify this - the issue is not length - it is un-necessary length
if the point has been made once - get on with it - it does not need to be made another 5 times...

and the reality is that the majority of these that I have seen - and I have stumbled across far too many - deliberately obfuscate the points...
I have no issue with long documents - I would happily read a 600 page academic paper which is succinct and to the point - with precis / structured content / examples / evidence / conclusions / bibliographies / etc. - length is not the issue - I would not happily read that same 600 page paper if in fact the paper has only one point and dances around the issue - trying to show more value with un-necessary length...

lets have an exercise on here - to take examples of these LSLs and distill them down to the shortest text we can without losing the points being made... i.e. the absolute minimum distillation of their text
I would guess they would become rather a lot shorter...

so the issue isn't the length per se - it is the style of writing / layout designed to keep returning to the same point - without ever quite making it - because the seller knows that making the point simply and succinctly will show rather less substance than can be implied by the lengthy meaningless drivel they can post instead

I am sure that if we look at print we have all seen those 'cheap adverts' in the back of the Sunday supplements - for memory systems / cheap shoes (claiming to be handmade in Nottingham!) / how I made £1 trillion in a week and you can do the same / etc. - they all follow this same format - now compare those against adverts by Nike / Bentley / Asprays / Apple / etc. etc. - just a touch simpler...

have a look at: www.huwandgary.com (it is not selling you anything - it is a portfolio of a couple of ad guys - just happens to be a website I did)
that is an example of top level advertising by major international companies - we can assume I think that they are highly successful adverts - yet none of them follow this format - why? simply because they have something clear to sell... and the punter wants it...

In my view - the LSL format is used because it is more successful in converting in situations where there is a less robust offer
where the product is good / established brand / meets an obvious need - this format is not needed - simplicity is the name of the game...
where in all the advertising carried on our websites do advertisers ask for an area 980px x 40,000px? they don't - they get their message across in an area perhaps 900px x 150px - because they have a product / offer which can be summarised in that space...

so, the space is not being used as the best mechanism for the user
where a product / offer is good, vastly less space is needed
therefore the reason for a LSL is to confuse / obscure / hide the real detail until you have committed in some way...

there is no need to cover the content of a 15 minute video - if you can't summarise your offer in 6 lines you haven't got a coherent offer - or you have a coherent offer, but if the punter knew the real offer they might not buy!

so - yes, they might be more successful - for offers which are undefined / vague / unlikely / etc. - but clearly not in the real world for crisp / simple / powerful offers which manage in far smaller spaces - therefore the mere existence of such an approach tells me a lot about the offer...

perhaps the British Public needs educating!

Alasdair

There is a lot of conjecture in there Alistair, and many assumptions which are not valid.

Sure there are usability metrics dreamed up by the software design world.. The problem is the value of the metrics is largely subjective, and they rarely if ever translate to ££££. The most usable commercial website is clearly the one that makes the most ££££ and has the most returning v isitors by any logical sense. And those kind of "conversion" metrics are generally if any correlation are in inverse correlation to these relatively arbitrary useability criteria.

The presumption that big brand "image" advertising works. The people who have to pay for it out of their own pockets disagree with you almost completely. Read both Alan Sugar and Dysons biographies and interviews , - both of whom are scathing about advertising so called "professionals". Big brands manage to push up the cost of advertising on PPC too, because there adverts are so poor. It is far better to read what guys like sugarman believe, who write long ads for physical products.

I once talked to a high up in IMC (remember them?) - who amongst other things had a high 6 figure jewellery business online - and here is the fascinating thing. He showed me where he was selling engagement rings using a long sales letter!! Instead of 100 different products, he had compelling sales letters for a few, and his metrics blew everyone else in that niche out of the water. So do not presume long sales copy does not work on other than information products.

There is also a presumption that long necessarily means obfuscated . I disagree entirely.
It may have been true of the sales letter that started this - the lack of proof or anything else was certainly a problem.

So Just take one aspect - credibility.

You have several things to do. First about you - prove your track record. Then demonstrate that it works, and give the result of that demonsttration. Second provide longer term proof Bank statements, account statements of what it can do for they users and how you intend to show they are genuine. Then give the results via testimonials of a lot of others vouching for it , more important using it. Finally the details of any trial and guarantee.

To do all the above is a good ten pages minimum. Without it you lose sales.

The reason long sales lettters are used by direct marketers, are they work, and short concise crisp adverts do not. They do not tell enough, sell enough, inspire enough, visualoze enough, guarantee enough, call to act enouigh.

One thing you may not realise too, are many newspapers and magazines are what they are because editorial standards prevent sales copy being used.

It comes down in the end , to the more you tell the more you sell.


The proprietors of the tycoon system that started this thread may have used 10 pages of fluff, but that was not good copy - the genre should not be judged on one example.

[mikeb]

Just one or two final thoughts, since this has run its course.

1/ Long sales letter is essentially a process, it may not be written. Take for example armand morins latest presentation. It may be a video - but it follows the path of a long sales letter. I have not even had time to watch this yet, but I know morin's style. He starts with the big promise like all sales materials should "what if I could show you ...." , then goes into the story of how it came about etc etc...

http://www.armandmorin.com/fast/

If you want to critque something, maybe we should try that.

See the screen. If written it would be a sales letter. If as just suggested we simply had a short punchy ad. "Proven system to build fan pages of many fans (dumbing down the claim of 140000 he makes) by the veteran marketer armand morin. Only (however many $)" he would sell precisely none!!!

2/ One thing I have done many times is raise money for businesses. The biggest was a handful of years ago, where I wrote the plans that raised £10m public/private money. Mostly down in high 5/low 6 figures - and I discovered that if you want to raise money be they grants, bank funding and PARTICULARLY venture funding, the worst thing that you can do is produce a "standard business plan" - much like a "standard website" it is long on information and hopeless at selling. Venture capitalists and particularly celebrity entrepreneurs get tens of proposals a day or a week. So a document entitled "busines plan for mywebsite ventures" starting with the "executive summary" gets filed under B for Bin. It needs a big promise as the headline. And a deck copy that feeds the greed glands. Then a story that leads into the irriestible offer, proof of value, proof of credibility ,lots of mouthwatering bullets answering with why this , why now, why me why you, answering the objections then a call to action with a mystery ellement that makes them want to call to find out. Speaking after their interest. Answering the conversation going on in the recipients head . With a VC it is how much can I make, how quickly, how can I get out, and prove to me YOU can do it...it is about investing in aperson not just a business. With a bank it is "show me your plan A, B. C and D that proves the money unconditioanlly safe, and that you as well as the business can survive the worst scenarios.

In short the best business plan IS A LONG SALES LETTER!! , a differnet one for each class of recipient. The plan is no different, it is what is drawn out as important in what order that changes...- it has all the elements of long sales letter..

It cannot get you funding. It can only get you to a presentation. So that is what it has to do.
And all the time just like this thread the "accountants" and "consultants" were telling me - but this is how a business plan should look. WRONG Assumptions repeated so often they had gained the status of fact..

[akirk]

See the screen. If written it would be a sales letter. If as just suggested we simply had a short punchy ad. "Proven system to build fan pages of many fans (dumbing down the claim of 140000 he makes) by the veteran marketer armand morin. Only (however many $)" he would sell precisely none!!!

and therein lies my biggest dislike of this approach...
if it sells none based on a short punchy ad - then the product is not selling - it is the letter...
that simply says to me - bad product - good sales

put an Aston Martin in front of someone and it does not require a long sales letter to sell it
a Kia C'eed (or however you write it!) on the other hand might
superficial analogy I know...

So to sum up - yes, this works if you are the seller - but, as per my original point - I hate them as a buyer because I know that the reason it is there is because with it he makes sales and without he doesn't - therefore the sales process is sucessful, not the product - ergo, I don't want the product...

as a buyer who is capable of making my own decisions - I just want to know the product / facts - I will then make a decision on buying - I don't want a process telling me to buy - it is patronising / arrogant / etc. etc. and the seller is clearly more interested in selling the product than in me / my needs / why I would wish to buy - because all that matters is the sale - not the right solution for me.

so as a seller - yes do them
as a buyer - not interested

Alasdair

[mikeb]

and therein lies my biggest dislike of this approach...
if it sells none based on a short punchy ad - then the product is not selling - it is the letter...
that simply says to me - bad product - good sales

put an Aston Martin in front of someone and it does not require a long sales letter to sell it
a Kia C'eed (or however you write it!) on the other hand might
superficial analogy I know...

So to sum up - yes, this works if you are the seller - but, as per my original point - I hate them as a buyer because I know that the reason it is there is because with it he makes sales and without he doesn't - therefore the sales process is sucessful, not the product - ergo, I don't want the product...

as a buyer who is capable of making my own decisions - I just want to know the product / facts - I will then make a decision on buying - I don't want a process telling me to buy - it is patronising / arrogant / etc. etc. and the seller is clearly more interested in selling the product than in me / my needs / why I would wish to buy - because all that matters is the sale - not the right solution for me.

so as a seller - yes do them
as a buyer - not interested

Alasdair

That is a logical non sequitur.

The fact that a process successful in selling cannot be asssumed to infer whether the product is poor.

The two things do not follow at all.

As for "being presented with the facts" then choosing what to buy not so. You are being manipulated all the time.

The aston martin analogy is spot on. It is ONLY with a known brand product the sales process can be short - because the incessant pimping of that product to media and journalists and media is why you have preconceptions about it. And that type of advertising and PR is INCREDIBLY expensive: no small company can afford it, and most big companies would work better doing it differently.

I don't know what business you run Alasdair, but I do know you cannot afford image advertising in mass media to create brand preconceptions. So how else are you going to sell?

The answer is by finding a means to target your customer more directly then proving to the customer you have something they want. And you can do that either badly or well, the choice of how will have a direct impact on how much you sell even though the underlying product was not changed by the sales process.

You do it well by understanding who your customer is, and their mindset, and selling to that mindset, by explaining not what it is, but by getting them to imagine how it will improve either their lives or those around them, or how it will improve how they feel about themselves, by making the promise or claim that will resonate with them, getting them to imagine both the problem and the solution, proving value and credibility, explaining why this, why now, why him , why you, a big heap of benefits to make sure you address the one that matters to the customer, and then asking for the order in the right way.

In short copywriting 101 - which is not about concealing the product, it is about revealing why it matches the needs and wants of the customer, and not what it is, but what it wil do for the, answering objections on the way.. Joining the conversation in the customers head.

As I said early on - the tycoon offer that started this is a really bad example, because they failed to do any of things which brought the product to life. For example what is a typical site flip in 2012? where do they come from? what range of cost? what range of work needing doing? how big a margin? how can you mitigate tax? how big a budget and how many sales do you need to replace full time income? what percentage of flips are successful? how many do they end up writing off? what other costs are there? how much are successful people earning? where are the testimonials from people that prove they can teach the process, and what do they have to say? The letter and video they wrote was complete fluff: had it been done well instead then they would have sold more,and had fewer cancellations because the expectation was correct.

By implication you are saying had they done it properly and joined the conversation in the customers head, the product cannot be any good. Logical non sequitur.

Also belied by the facts. As I told you one of britains best direct marketers sells more or less exclusively by long sales letter, and many if not most of his customers are repeat. The point is it is because the sales letter did its job so there were no surprises in what was bought, the risks, the rewards, they trust the guy second time round.

I don't know what business you run alasdair,but you have a clear choice with it.
You can either present the information the customer needs to determine whether the product meets his wants, or you can leave it to chance. The trouble is the customer will not want to ask you about it until he is reasonably convinced you are the solution, so the chances of them picking up the phone from a bare set of facts is remote. The customer will go to the one he can evaluate without having to talk first. That is human nature.

After all what are the "facts"?
The facts are not what it is, but what it can do for you, the proof it can do it, and how that can improve either your situation or how you feel.

Copywriting is the art of presenting that in print. If there is a lot to say, it needs a long letter.

And personally, if I am going to trust someone with for example that extremley expenive tycoon course - ( because it would cost many hours of my time valued at $thousands, and a dollar) then I need the proof that it is not hype. None was offered, ergo that was a 20 page letter that was 20 too long, because this system of theres may be clever, but it is probably not earning them any money. If it was they would tell me so and prove it.. The fact that they do not tells its own story. That is the conversation in my head they failed to address. ie the course has little more than academic interest, and frankly I am too busy for that.

I guess we have done this to death.

I suggest readers read "influence" cialdini, and "predictably irrational" ariely to prove that however rational you think your decision making is, it is not. It is influenced subconsciously by far more things than you would guess.

[mikeb]

BTW - I just watched Morin's video, and frankly I was underwhelmed.

Nowhere does he explain the kinds of markets he is building fan pages in.
Ot the constant confilct between "what converts" and facebook admins enforcing very vague TOC to ban ads, pages and people.
More importantly - the monetization issues.

Getting fans is one thing, monetizing them without getting them complaining to facebook is quite another.
There is no supporting proof of how this makes money.

In my view - he would have done better giving the training free to sell the plugin for monetization using wordpress

The last morin video I watched (a couple of years ago now) sold me "placement generator" and it was a good tool too, for finding sites on which to place ads.

The video gave the instruction on why "placement" and how to do it, sold the tool to make it quicker: a long sales letter in effect that demonstrated the problem how it would benefit , then solved it. Full of information.

So thumbs down on morins letter for me - it failed to sell me at all.
I think people are now running scared of FTC guidelines so are avoiding putting any numbers into presentations, even their own, let alone testimonials. And the problem that gives is the elimination of the most important information for choosing what to buy!