What's your take on the Long Sales Letter

[akirk]

I don't know what business you run alasdair,but you have a clear choice with it.
You can either present the information the customer needs to determine whether the product meets his wants, or you can leave it to chance. The trouble is the customer will not want to ask you about it until he is reasonably convinced you are the solution, so the chances of them picking up the phone from a bare set of facts is remote. The customer will go to the one he can evaluate without having to talk first. That is human nature.

I run a business providing strategic business design (web / design / business consultancy) I do no marketing at all - all my work comes from referrals / word of mouth - so for me the issue is probably not relevant...

A couple of points though:
- you are making a mistake in responding to my posts in arguing through the logic of the letter - when my posts are saying - if you are selling, use it - it works - but for me personally as a buyer I am put off and won't buy. So in some ways the logic is irrelevant - it is a personal response - and one which is not uncommon amongst those who have a particular approah to how they buy...

- the LSL format is rarely used as you describe - an opportunity to lay out all the details in front of the customer - it is usually used as a psychological exercise to push to a sale - otherwise why oh why do they keep repeating the same points over and over again, in different ways... unless the punter really is thick! no - the reason they do it is because it is a psychological trick to push to sale... the whole process is not as you suggest about putting the information in front of me - if it was there would be no need for the vaguely patronising tone of voice used / the repetition / the waffle / etc. - that is all part of a sales technique... so, on recognising that - I leave - as I would encourage all educated buyers to do..

- in today's world we have a viral awareness of products / services - the good and the bad tend to be well known within relevant circles - you can get a feel for a car / a computer / a service / a consumer product / etc. from forums / tweets / facebook review sites / etc. - if we removed all advertising (made it illegal!) would people be any less able to buy the car they wanted / find the latest blockbuster book or film / choose food to eat? of course not - we have to therefore ask what advertising is about - and simply it is designed to sell more of product a than of its competitors - it is about making money for the source company... it is not geared, as you suggest, towards providing the information the customer needs so that they can make an appropriate decision - because doing that might mean their appropriate decision is to buy from someone else - it is geared towards making the customer buy that product... even if it is not the most suitable - information is concealed if negative deliberately or by omission - there are implied statements which walk a fine line legally etc. etc.

I once worked for a large multi-national and put in place the IT suppliers policy - it was simple - don't call us, we will call you - if they called, they were put through to me and I said goodbye They got very frustrated, but our procurement became a shorter process / took less staff time / became cheaper / was more accurate / etc. - because we employed 1,000s of IT staff - some of the best in the country - we knew more than the suppliers about our own needs / usually more about the products than their sales folk / when we had a need we would go to them and the discussion was far more constructive... We ended up wasting less money / having a more focused solution portfolio etc. - For the seller to believe that the buyer doesn't know what they want may be right in some instances - but in many it is not - and as one of those buyers who knows what I want - I do not like this sales approach... personal views

Alasdair

[mikeb]

Alasdair

We have done this to death - so I shall move on. Just a couple of observations.
1/ The preconception that LSL as repeat fluff is only symptomatic of poor sales letters.
2/ The patronising tone problem I agree with. I found a massive turnoff with Kenny and Justin. It radiated the great "I am" without providing the information to even support that status.
3/ Selling mass market products and minor products are two different things - The problem is how an unknown can sell to his non mass market (BTW another fascinating book is the "long tail" showing how people are tending that way)
4/ Also selling a person (you in your business description) is different from selling an impersonal service or product
5/ It is equally a mistake to listen to viral approach. Ask bernie maddoffs ex customers will tell you.
6/ One of the hardest things to do as a copywriter is to get into the head of a buyer, whose needs and wants are different to yours. You have remarked - you don't need selling . So it would be hard, I think for you to judge marketing product presentations, or how they may resonate with people who do.
7/ The people who make the greatest gains are early adopters of any technology particularly in marketing. So the problem is real of how information is presented when social media have nothing to offer either way because the product or promoter is too new. I have been on facebook and twitter for several years just after the roll out of both, long before they were "hip"

Anyway I must be an "uneducated schmuk" in your reckoning, because I buy products from long presentation if they meet my needs at the time. I bought this from Morin several years ago, when it was relatively unknown method . http://www.armandmorin.com/placement/ - It did indeed make me some significant money, which I felt was highly likely having watched it.

So watch it. See if it triggers your spam filters too
BTW - one thing to consider - it is American, and all american stuff is "in your face" - you have to see through the veneer.
Personally I prefer softer copywriters such as ted nicholas and amongst the newer breed ray edwards.
The in your face letters of such as John Carlton jar with me. Although I still have the "one legged golfer " and other classics in my swipe file.

[akirk]

Mike,

nothing is done to death if we keep teasing out interesting new thoughts / facts / ideas...
appreciate your answers - we may have to agree to disagree - I am yet to see a LSL which is a) about me the consumer b) isn't written to push sales where otherwise they wouldn't happen c) doesn't use psychological marketing / sales techniques... if they exist - great...
I think that one of our areas of disagreement is that you seem to believe that the consumer needs to be sold to - for their own good? - that without being sold to they somehow wouldn't end up with the product they need etc.
My perspective is that we live in a society that believes that because it makes money for the seller, not because it is for the consumer's own good... I believe that the consumer is capable of making decisions...
My belief about viral knowledge is confirmed by your post above - if I wanted a solution such as Morin's placement one - then I would be informed by you / your use of it / your being happy with it / the success it has brought you... I filter that message against my level of trust in and knowledge of you and if the signs are right I go and look at the product... I don't need a sales letter... in fact I am more likely to buy from recommendation than a sales letter... I am more likely to be a committed / long term consumer...
My philosophy is to build businesses based on meeting the real needs of the consumer - that is how I help my customers and long term I believe it works - it might not make as much money initially / or as fast - but it builds long term stable businesses - in times like the recent recession I see growth not decline... we all have our own philosophy - there is no one right or wrong approach

Alasdair

[mikeb]

Mike,

nothing is done to death if we keep teasing out interesting new thoughts / facts / ideas...
appreciate your answers - we may have to agree to disagree - I am yet to see a LSL which is a) about me the consumer b) isn't written to push sales where otherwise they wouldn't happen c) doesn't use psychological marketing / sales techniques... if they exist - great...
I think that one of our areas of disagreement is that you seem to believe that the consumer needs to be sold to - for their own good? - that without being sold to they somehow wouldn't end up with the product they need etc.
My perspective is that we live in a society that believes that because it makes money for the seller, not because it is for the consumer's own good... I believe that the consumer is capable of making decisions...
My belief about viral knowledge is confirmed by your post above - if I wanted a solution such as Morin's placement one - then I would be informed by you / your use of it / your being happy with it / the success it has brought you... I filter that message against my level of trust in and knowledge of you and if the signs are right I go and look at the product... I don't need a sales letter... in fact I am more likely to buy from recommendation than a sales letter... I am more likely to be a committed / long term consumer...
My philosophy is to build businesses based on meeting the real needs of the consumer - that is how I help my customers and long term I believe it works - it might not make as much money initially / or as fast - but it builds long term stable businesses - in times like the recent recession I see growth not decline... we all have our own philosophy - there is no one right or wrong approach

Alasdair

1/ Selling (and buying) are psychology. You cannot have one without the other. When dealing with "wants" You buy on emotion, then justify with fact. Nobody needs a ferrari. People buy them because they want them, so emotion is the sale not the "cold facts" - except when buying basic needs, which are generally bad businesses to be in , because price is the only determinant, however analytical you think you are, you are buying on emotion too. So control of emotion is the sales process.

2/ Continuous development demands you keep exploring what is new: and to do that you have to listen to sales pitches, you have no other choice. Either that or as a service professional you are probably letting your customers down.

3/ As regards only buying what people recommend - welcome to Bernie Maddoffs retirement fund. The power of recommendation is too great - as is the psychological force called "consistency" - which means people will recommend even despite the evidence it is not working for them, to stay true to their own decision. As is the power of authority. You guys assume justins course is good because it is him. When an outsider comes to it (me) I see massive gaping holes - the fact that he refuses to say it makes money, is more or less a demonstration it does not. Clinton saw holes in the argument , and thank goodness for that, because otherwise too many would have bought on the strength of the "name" and recommendation

Let me explain also the danger of recommendation. I have to be careful because I suspect the guilty party is known to you all.
I listened to a recommendation of a top league marketer (this case Ed Dale) that I should be listening to XYZ. I did - XYZ seemed to know his stuff recommended total openness in dealings on buying sites. XYZ had a partner, so on the strength of those recommendations I bought a site from his partner assuming ethics transfer , only to discover it was a scam. The traffic was not real, so I threw the site back at him. Recommendations are often assumptions repeated so often they gain the status of fact without proof. I raised the impartial question "who says jUstins site buying and selling can be successful for others??" I want the proof please. Recommendations get a hearing from me. They do not get a purchase.


On another forum I have since left, one member became everybodies helping hand, there with an answer for everything so deemed a good guy. He started a marketing club which everybody assumed was successful. He then sold apprenticeships and all 20 got scammed out of £25000 each, because in reality the guy was just an affable "friend "who knew only how to sell to newbies by creating a social debt to him. In another world he could have been maddoff, if he had decided to scam less money from a lot more people. So forget recommendation as a means of choice. EXCEPT on hard numbers of what worked!!!


4/Why do I have an obligation to recommend to you. or to become a guinea pig which your scheme of choosing other peoples recommendations relies on? I as a principle rarely if ever recommend paid stuff. If it is working I do not want all and sundry jumping on board! And if you never pioneer anything in the exchange of information , how can you ever contribute anything if you are the last on board? ie someone in that loop has to listen to the pitch and take the gamble. You rely on that just as much as me, except in a less honest way, because you rely on me gambling to give you more certainty.

5/I also have to say I have a pioneer mindset - I was connecting cameras to computers when they were still tubes and PCs could not hold an image in memory, so I had to process in electronics. 10 years before my time!! To push the boundaries you have to know where they are, and that means trying to sort wheat in pitches from a lot of chaff....I also cannot focus on anything for long, which is one of the worst things you can bring into business! I get bored too quickly.

Anyway I am curious. I showed you one product I bought on the strength of that vid - and take another one - a membership script. http://www.digitalaccesspass.com/ or optimized press even. That is in most peoples definitions a long sales pitch , and not very polished . It is also what I needed to decide whether to buy...

So does either offend you? if so why? the products answered my objectives, so the sale was made because of the pitches, where otherwise I would have bought something else.

[Matteo]

I am like Alasdair personally but I also know that products don't sell themselves. Just look at all of the great products that don't make it and look at all of the junk that sells like crazy. The tactic doesn't necessarily mean the product is bad.

For those of us that are aware of the marketing tactic being used on us we tend to associate the method with a certain type of product or service if it is commonly used by a certain segment. Especially if it is a template and looks so much like the others. I think that is why it has a negative affect on some of us. I turn off quickly when I see a LSL. It's a reaction. I probably miss out on some quality products and services as a result.

The conversion rate is very high because the focus is singular. It's a one call close. You have two options when you hit a LSL. 1) Buy 2) Leave

Many large companies use the same approach using a softer delivery on a single focus page. We just don't think about it because we know and trust those big brands.

[mikeb]

I am like Alasdair personally but I also know that products don't sell themselves. Just look at all of the great products that don't make it and look at all of the junk that sells like crazy. The tactic doesn't necessarily mean the product is bad.

For those of us that are aware of the marketing tactic being used on us we tend to associate the method with a certain type of product or service if it is commonly used by a certain segment. Especially if it is a template and looks so much like the others. I think that is why it has a negative affect on some of us. I turn off quickly when I see a LSL. It's a reaction. I probably miss out on some quality products and services as a result.

The conversion rate is very high because the focus is singular. It's a one call close. You have two options when you hit a LSL. 1) Buy 2) Leave

Many large companies use the same approach using a softer delivery on a single focus page. We just don't think about it because we know and trust those big brands.

Take the IBM PC for one. There were far better computers around . The "apricot" was a dream in comparison. Sadly the ones who sold it did not advertise it well. They were long on pictures and advertising agency b/s tag lines. Short of the detail and focus on compelling benefits that would have sold it. Apricot could have been apple had they played the hand well. Apricot was all abouot user experience just like jobs,. Take BASIC , the worlds worst computer language marketed better than the better competitors. etc etc etc.

Nobody has commented on the pages I mentioned one way or another. I maintain the information in that placement generator video (which is not a great direct marketing piece either, DAP even worse, Optimize press worse again in my view ) was what was needed to make an informed buying decision. The short punchy ad suggested by alasdair could not have convinced anyone to buy, because the amount that needed explaining.

[akirk]

Mike,

you make some valid points - but you don't answer all the points I make (of course no reason to expect you to! )
but in particular:

you argue that the LSL is needed to put all the information in front of the buyer

I argue that they switch me off - not because of length, but un-necessry length - that the points being made could be distilled to 30% of the length - that they repeat the same points several times - that the structure is carefully set to push me where otherwise I would not go...

I don't have a problem with detail in an advert - in fact I love reading - it is the structure / the psychology / the approach which says to me that this is more about parting me from my money, than providing a solution to a need / desire I might have...

you mention an example of a LSL where without it sales would not have been made - I can only assume then that the sales are made because of the psychology of the letter - not the benefits of the product - otherwise it would still sell without...

If you can find me a sales letter which sets out to give only the facts - use no selling psychology / trickery - is not patronising / etc. etc. - then I would be interested in seeing it - but I am not sure I have come across one...

Alasdair

[mikeb]

Mike,

you make some valid points - but you don't answer all the points I make (of course no reason to expect you to! )
but in particular:

you argue that the LSL is needed to put all the information in front of the buyer

I argue that they switch me off - not because of length, but un-necessry length - that the points being made could be distilled to 30% of the length - that they repeat the same points several times - that the structure is carefully set to push me where otherwise I would not go...

I don't have a problem with detail in an advert - in fact I love reading - it is the structure / the psychology / the approach which says to me that this is more about parting me from my money, than providing a solution to a need / desire I might have...

you mention an example of a LSL where without it sales would not have been made - I can only assume then that the sales are made because of the psychology of the letter - not the benefits of the product - otherwise it would still sell without...

If you can find me a sales letter which sets out to give only the facts - use no selling psychology / trickery - is not patronising / etc. etc. - then I would be interested in seeing it - but I am not sure I have come across one...

Alasdair

It is clearly a valid opinion since you hold it.


But I did comment and must disagree to the extent that I would argue that there is no such thing as selling or buying without psychology as the basis for why you buy. So if that is how you buy, that is how the seller must sell.

As I pointed out, a ferrari , a manchester united ticket, or a piece of jewellery are not needed - they are unnecessary but wanted for all that, so cannot be sold by simply listing the description of the item for sale. The reason they will be bought is the emotional value. How can you sell something that is bought on emotion without expressing the emotion - it is pointless, since the reason for purchase is the emotional value!Nobody needs a ferrari. If you buy on logic you would never buy one unless vintage or rare as an investment, and even then you probably could not arrive there by logical assessment.

Everything except basic human needs is bought on emotion , then rationalized with fact.

When you buy anything there is a conversation going on in your head: all sorts of questions and objections. The truly gifted copywriter answers the questions as they occur to you joining that conversation in your head.

There is also a hopeless contradiction in your opinion.

The fact that you buy on "social proof" and "authority" by your own admission. It would be bizarre therefore if the letter did not address the criteria you already own up to using. Because by your own admission the "facts" are not just a specification they are "who do you respect that vouches for this" that is a fact like any other.


Did you look at the content of either page?

[Chabrenas]

Anyway I am curious. I showed you one product I bought on the strength of that vid - and take another one - a membership script. http://www.digitalaccesspass.com/ or optimized press even. That is in most peoples definitions a long sales pitch , and not very polished . It is also what I needed to decide whether to buy...

So does either offend you? if so why? the products answered my objectives, so the sale was made because of the pitches, where otherwise I would have bought something else.

If I needed that product, I would buy it on the strength of the information in the video and the sales letter, but I'd have a headache at the end of the process. I've learned to skim the text of LSLs and extract what I need, but I hated the video - for the following reasons:

1. The 'music' was intrusive. For me, it set a mood entirely at odds with what I was doing - trying to follow a technical demo. I suppose I could have muted the sound, but I kept hoping someone would start talking me through the on-screen actions.

2. For me, videos always have a potential pace mismatch. Worse still, I can't re-run them and fast-track to a point that I want to repeat (unless I download them and load them into a video editor, which generally takes more time than the content justifies, but I have done it once or twice with tutorials). I suppose the same applies to live presentations, but they always have a Q&A session at the end, and usually a transcript or a set of accompanying notes.

I think it happens on websites, but has anyone ever received a sales letter that is strucctured with drill-down capability? That's how I'd like to be sold a technical product.

For me, this illustrates Alasdair's viewpoint. I'm being sold a product that satisfies a technical need, using emotion-manipulating techniques. I need to start out very strongly convinced that I need what I hope the pitch is going to sell me - otherwise I run away, slightly frightened and wary.

[Clinton]

I always wondered, if it's the large volumes of information that you need to convey, why not structure it so not everybody has to read every word? Those who want to see more testimonials, for example, could hover over the testimonial button. Have Ajax, a slider, on-click pop-ups, whatever!