The "G" Question

[christopheravell]

Well, anyone who knows me knows that I am a firm believer in God (although it wasn't always that way). So, whenever I can I like to ask the question... DO YOU? Do you believe in God?

[hooperman]

I think that something like god exists in all of us. Things like giving love and being kind are all god-like qualities to me. As far as an ultimate creator goes, I'm not sure a god had a hand in that. A divine purpose: maybe there is one and I have a few ideas what that might be.

[christopheravell]

I think that something like god exists in all of us. Things like giving love and being kind are all god-like qualities to me. As far as an ultimate creator goes, I'm not sure a god had a hand in that. A divine purpose: maybe there is one and I have a few ideas what that might be.

You may be more in touch with the God of the Bible than you thought. ;-)

Gen 1:27
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

Gal 5:22
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness"

[gring54]

Bit deep for me peeps, i was brought up having to go to church every sunday and both parents being christian. I believe but only from my upgringing. Being forced to go to church as a young boy wasnt the best memories i have.

[JJMcClure]

Does god exist? I don't know. Is it likely that a god exists? No.

There are and have been many religions in human society and although they do share similarities in that they usually involve a spiritual aspect, the details differ so significantly that they can't all be right. That implies that they could be wrong, and once you accept that any religion could be wrong then you have to accept that they could all be wrong.

Add to that all the evidecne about how quick we are to believe in things for which there's no conclusive proof or evidence (faries, lake monsters, ghosts etc etc), it becomes even more likely that it's a human construct. The reason why we'd do that is obvious, it has a survival benefit. A group of people united by a faith are more likely to be brave in battle, to work well together, to obey, to help each other etc etc. In other words they're more likely to survive and pass on the gentic makeup required to have that belief in something for which there's no proof or evidence. Now we're at a point where much of the human population has that genetic makeup but now instead of helping us survive, we've reach populations levels where it could actually work against us. In my view, we need to put our superstitions and pyschological coping mechanisms aside, take responsibility for what's going on around us and move on. Not going to happen though....

Not to put to fine a point on it, I thoroughly despise religious organisations (as opposed to the concept of religion) for the cruelty, misery and suffering that they're responsible for and for the immoral methods they use to target young vunerable children as converts to make sure they have a next generation of followers. They also stifle learning, if it were up to religion, we'd still be living in the dark ages rather than looking outward and asking questions like 'why are we here' and instead of accepting 'god made us' as the answer we're actually looking for evidence. So far no more evidence exists that supports that there are gods than exists to prove that there isn't a tea pot orbiting the earth.

My question to you Christopher isn't 'are you sure there's a god' because that's a never ending argument, it's 'why do you want to believe that there is a god?' And why pick the christian version, why not Hindu gods to believe in, or Sikhism, or Islam or one of the many other religions? I wonder how much you were influenced by the society you grew up in, it's very subtle how it happens, insiduous even.

(Also, I generally avoid referring to my atheistic outlook, I don't gratuitously thank my lack of belief in a god.s for my success in earning a living online, and I don't post my opinion on religions - even in the Roger Boyes thread where I was sorely tempted - since it's such a contentious subject. Would you be kind enough to post with that etiquette? Let's keep religion in this thread.)

[Andy]

Interesting. I didn't know God was up for election this year. :-)

If I was forced to go to some of the churches I've been to in my life, I might run myself.

The funny thing is, I have yet to find a culture, any culture, who has not considered this question. Most seem to decide there is "something" superior to themselves.

As for myself, I once decided there was no such thing as any god, gods or spirits. Once I was presented with the facts, I changed my mind and never regretted it.

Andy

P.S. Shows you what I know - when I first saw the title I was positive it was about goo-gle. Not far off in some folks minds now was I?

[christopheravell]

Does god exist? I don't know. Is it likely that a god exists? No.
There are and have been many religions in human society and although they do share similarities in that they usually involve a spiritual aspect, the details differ so significantly that they can't all be right. That implies that they could be wrong, and once you accept that any religion could be wrong then you have to accept that they could all be wrong.

Perhaps I have to accept that they all COULD be wrong. But that, of course, doesn't mean they all ARE wrong. In science there are many theories... The details differ so significantly they cannot all be right. So, once you accept that any scientific theory could be wrong, you have to accept that they could all be wrong, no? This same logic could be applied to almost anything. In an easy example:

1 + 1 = 2
1 + 2 = 9
1 + 3 = 4

We know that #2 is incorrect. But that doesn't mean that #1 and #3 are incorrect. But another interesting way to look at it is -- throughout history so many people have believed in (a) God (or Gods) that perhaps there is a good reason. The Bible in fact says this:

Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

This verse to me seem true to what we see... People throughout time in awe/worship of God's glory.

Add to that all the evidence about how quick we are to believe in things for which there's no proof or evidence, it becomes even more likely that it's a human construct.

You don't seem quick to believe in things for which you FEEL their is no proof or evidence? Are you the *exceptional* exception to the rule, just above the "general population" or do you too believe things which there is no proof or evidence? Is there a chance that your "burden of proof" is not even from one thing to the next? If I were to ask you "do you believe in Genghis Kahn"? You probably would answer YES. Why? Because OTHERS have told you it is true. It is history. You have not SEEN him, you have no real PROOF he exists. The evidence you have that he even ever existed is just a few historical accounts. There are many written WELL AFTER Kahn and all his direct descendants were long gone. So, do you hold Kahn to the same burden of proof standard as you do God? What about Michelangelo? Do you question his existence? After all, small fewer people reported on him (at the time of his existence) than did on Christ. The only "proof" you have that da Vinci even painted the Mona Lisa is a handful of people... Yet, do you take it as fact? Over 500 people witnessed the resurrection of Christ Jesus and many were even KILLED for their refusal to deny the fact of what they had witnessed. How many people stayed firm, even when threatened with death, that da Vinci painted the famed Mona Lisa? How can you be sure da Vinci even existed!? And yet, you probably haven't questioned it much. So is it perhaps that you are quick to believe that to which there is little proof? And, perhaps, you pick-and-choose what constitutes proof to fit your theory?

Some may look at a work as proof. For example, you might suggest that the Mona Lisa is PROOF that da Vinci existed. You say "I can see his works, therefore I know he existed". But when one says look all around you at the most amazing painting in the world, the universe and everything in it... There is the work of God and thus proof of his existence. Some say "there is no proof that god created all this" and yet they do not hold even da Vinci to the same standard. There is MUCH more written about God's creation of the universe than there is about da Vinci's creation of the Mona Lisa, but we CHOOSE to believe what we CHOOSE to believe. But let's not pretend that we're not doing so.

Job 9:24 - When a land falls into the hands of the wicked, he blindfolds its judges. If it is not he, then who is it?

Perhaps some are blindfolded?

The reason why we'd do that is obvious, it has a survival benefit. A group of people united by a faith are more likely to be brave in battle, to work well together, to obey, to help each other etc etc. In other words they're more likely to survive and pass on the gentic makeup required to have that belief in something for which there's no proof or evidence. Now we're at a point where much of the human population has that genetic makeup but now instead of helping us survive, we've reach populations levels where it could actually work against us. In my view, we need to put our superstitions and pyschological coping mechanisms aside, take responsibility for what's going on around us and move on. Not going to happen though....

The more obvious reason would be that it is true. What you are calling a more obvious reason falls into "hypothesis". Again, you're not keeping true to the burden of truth you yourself have established. You are stating the "reason" as fact when, in fact, there are many opposing opinions to that - both religious AND scientific. Therefore, in your own logic you must be willing to accept that your position might not be true. And, that being the case, the reason is not obvious. The reason FEELS OBVIOUS to YOU.

Not to put to fine a point on it, I thoroughly despise religious organisations (as opposed to the concept of religion) for the cruelty, misery and suffering that they're responsible for and for the immoral methods they use to target young vunerable children as converts to make sure they have a next generation of followers. They also stifle learning, if it were up to religion, we'd still be living in the dark ages rather than looking outward and asking questions like 'why are we here' and instead of accepting 'god made us' as the answer we're actually looking for evidence. So far no more evidence exists that supports that there are gods than exists to prove that there isn't a tea pot orbiting the earth.

You're really boxing religion together. There, as you yourself have pointed out, are many different religions with different views. But you seem to stray from them here and box them together as the same entity. Has anyone ever told you that there is a teapot orbiting the earth? Has it been written about for centuries? There is more evidence for God than anything else in the universe. All you need to do is look. Again, how many people have claimed to see Confucius? Millions more have claimed to see God, feel God, and his work is evident everywhere. You just choose to ignore this evidence and want to hold God to a higher burden of proof.

My question to you Christopher isn't 'are you sure there's a god' because that's a never ending argument, it's 'why do you want to believe that there is a god?' And why pick the christian version, why not Hindu gods to believe in, or Sikhism, or Islam or one of the many other religions? Couldn't be anything to do with the society you grew up in could it.....

I don't want to believe there is a God. Or, I didn't. I was blissfully ignorant in my life without God. I was challenging anyone who was so unfortunately uneducated to believe in something so silly as God. Much like you probably feel. I thought it was all nonsense. I, like you, thought I was too intelligent to fall for the "God trick". I too was making arrogant statements like "Couldn't be anything to do with the society you grew up in could it.....".

However, God has revealed himself to me in such amazing and undeniable ways that, at some point, it became ridiculous to deny God. The real question is why do you want so badly to NOT believe in God? See, what proof would it take for you to believe in God? Chances are, if you feel like I did, you are thinking "only if God came to me and said - here I am and performed some miracles - then I would believe". Yep, a standard to which I did not hold ANYONE or ANYTHING else. Certainly I did not feel "the only way I am going to believe in George Washington is if he appears to me". Nope, the truth was, I didn't reject God because there wasn't enough evidence (although that is what I told myself and others), I rejected God because I WANTED TO.

[JJMcClure]

So, once you accept that any scientific theory could be wrong, you have to accept that they could all be wrong, no?

Yes, any scientific theory could be wrong, agreed. The theory of gravity is only a theory and the first time you drop something and it flies up to the ceiling you just disproved the theory. A theory only holds any weight when there is a LOT of evidence to support it. It's one of the major differences between science and faith, science is always to prepared to accept new evidence, draw new conclusions, admit error learn and improve. Faith on the other hand is destroyed by admission of error, it simply can't allow questioning for that exact reason. Unconditionally accepting faith is the anathema of learning.

Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

This verse to me seem true to what we see... People throughout time in awe/worship of God's glory.

You're quoting from a book 1600 years old and compiled by romans who chose which gospels would go into it according to what suited their agenda at the time. The bible has no meaning to me so quoting from it will not be regarded as proof of anything by me. Add to that list the Koran, the Talmut or any other religious texts.

If I were to ask you "do you believe in Genghis Kahn"? You probably would answer YES. Why? Because OTHERS have told you it is true. It is history. You have not SEEN him, you have no real PROOF he exists. The evidence you have that he even ever existed is just a few historical accounts.

Exactly right. I don't know for certain that Genghis Khan really existed. There's one big difference though, no one is trying to use GK to wield power over the populations of the planet in the way that religious organisations do so who benefits from making up the history of GK? No one really. Who benefits from creating deities? Well... that list is long and illustrious.

Religion is about control and when you look at it from that perspective a lot of things suddenly make sense. The buildings designed to create a sense of awe and a susceptible frame of mind, the regalia worn by priests and vicars etc for the same purpose, the hymns and scriptures and prayers, the ceremonies and intricate procedures all designed to instil the right words and sense of whatever deity they want you to believe in... etc etc

Perhaps some are blindfolded?

Indeed, in my view you have been blindfolded by your church, you don't see reality for what it most likely is, random and meaningless, cruel and indifferent to you. You’re not encouraged to think to hard about it or question it because then the church would lose control of you.

The more obvious reason would be that it is true. What you are calling a more obvious reason falls into "hypothesis". .

Everything you’ve said falls into the category of hypothesis too. Christianity has had 2000 years to come up with incontrovertible evidence, where is it?

Has anyone ever told you that there is a teapot orbiting the earth? Has it been written about for centuries? .

Yes, Bertrand Russel and no it’s a fairly recent discovery. Now prove to me that there isn’t a tea pot orbiting the earth… wait, you say ‘why should I have to I didn’t come up with such a ridiculous idea in the first place, it’s your idea, you prove there Is a tea pot…!!!’ Ok, now you do the same with god please, that’s not my idea, I shouldn’t have to prove there isn’t a god, you prove there is one.

There is more evidence for God than anything else in the universe. .

Obvious to you maybe because you want to believe. I'm starting from a different paradigm though, I don't think there are any gods so I look at it and I wonder why it is so many people believe in one and that survival benefit theory sounds good to me. It’s just a theory though and like a good open minded person I’ll continue to regard it as such and wait for more evidence to come in, one way or the other.

I don't want to believe there is a God. Or, I didn't. I was blissfully ignorant in my life without God. I was challenging anyone who was so unfortunately uneducated to believe in something so silly as God. Much like you probably feel. I thought it was all nonsense. I, like you, thought I was too intelligent to fall for the "God trick". I too was making arrogant statements like "Couldn't be anything to do with the society you grew up in could it.....".

Nothing arrogant about it. Society is insidious I the way it pushes whatever it’s religion is on it’s population. Children are targeted practically from birth and subtly steered towards Christianity in the UK through ‘Sunday’ schools, the Daily act of worship in regular schools and constant exposure to Christianity until they accept it as the ‘truth’. It’s immoral.

In Arab countries, children as young as 2 or 3 recite passages from the Koran and agree that it’s obviously the truth…..

However, God has revealed himself to me in such amazing and undeniable ways that, at some point, it became ridiculous to deny God.

Why did it take a personal experience to convince you and not all the other ‘proofs’ that you’ve been parading in front of me, why didn’t your evidence convince you the way you seem to think that they’ll convince me?

The real question is why do you want so badly to NOT believe in God?

I’d love to believe in god Christopher, it would solve a lot of problems for me. It would remove my fear of death for both myself and my loved ones, it would give me a sense that someone is watching out for me, very comforting, it would explain all the mysteries of the universe and how we came to be here, I wouldn’t have to wonder anymore because I’d be satisfied with answers like ‘god did it’ or ‘god moves in mysterious ways’… wait, I just listed all the things that make religions so easy to be seduced by.

I see religion as a weakness, a failure to cope with reality or the huge gaps in our knowledge and understanding of the universe but I don’t need to fill those gaps with superstition and mumbo jumbo. I’ll wait for science to provide answers, it’s doing quite a good job so far. Religions are constantly back peddling or adjusting their stance to cope with the revelations of new knowledge.

See, what proof would it take for you to believe in God?

Good question, no idea is the answer. Even if a huge bearded guy appeared in the sky and spoke to all of us I’d still wonder if there was another explanation….

[christopheravell]

Good question, no idea is the answer. Even if a huge bearded guy appeared in the sky and spoke to all of us I’d still wonder if there was another explanation….

Exactly, so you're saying to believe in God you need to see proof and you're also implying no such proof can exist. So, you just choose not to believe in God no matter what evidence suggests.

The bottom line is there is no debate to be had here with you, as there is NO EVIDENCE that would prove the existence of God to you. Things not flying up in the air prove gravity to you, but "Even if a huge bearded guy appeared in the sky and spoke to all of us I’d still wonder if there was another explanation…." So, you are just UNWILLING to believe in God. It has nothing to do really with "prove that God exists" and only to do with "God doesn't exist... Period".

You may not think it, but you are simply implying that you are more intelligent than those who believe in religion. We have all be scammed (we have a weakness) that you do not have. You are smarter than "us". A position you do NOT want to fall.

And, by the way to address "Why did it take a personal experience to convince you and not all the other ‘proofs’ that you’ve been parading in front of me, why didn’t your evidence convince you the way you seem to think that they’ll convince me?"... The answer is I do not believe it will convince you, that is my point. I know NOTHING will convince you, you are your own God. Stating you have an open mind is not the same as having one...

Ahhh to have the following - no possibility of eternal damnation, no responsibility to work for a greater good, no accountability to a creator, no obligation to put others first, no limits on my self-serving pleasure... wait, I just listed all the things that make a godless world so easy to be seduced by. :-)

[Clinton]

Off-Topic: You know it's a grown-up forum when differences of opinion can exist even on contentious subjects without personal insults/acrimony