Internet Marketing - What's scammy, what's ethical and what's middle ground?

[LukeMoulton]

[[Thread split from the How do you drive traffic thread - Clinton]]

May I suggest something? I know you've often recommended Market Samurai and you personally believe it's a good product. However, I couldn't help but feel disappointed when I noticed that the link had an affliate code and I began, somewhat unfairly, to suspect your original recommendation.

It's a fair point Clinton and something I'm conscious of. We don't always use them - this original post I did on Market Samurai for example didn't use any.

[Clinton]

Well, it's your decision, Luke. I suppose it was worth a shot to see if the affiliate link makes enough to compensate for the credibility leak.

Which I why I don't think it is too big a deal that they're doing it.

Most people in marketing think it's not a big deal. I do. I do not trust anyone, I repeat, anyone, who uses an affiliate link to recommend a product. That's because I wouldn't do it. On the experienced-people.co.uk site I could make several thousand dollars more every month if I was willing to embed affiliate links within my editorial (I did a brief experiment once to see the effect). I get numerous approaches every week from people wanting me to promote their make-money or site-flipping type affiliate programs on this site by slipping a recommendation into the text.

Whatever others may think about that being perfectly acceptable it would make me feel more than a little bit dirty. In fact, it's a Yucks to me Sticking an affiliate link on a banner ad is one thing, putting that link with my personal recommendation within the content of an article is another.

[LukeMoulton]

It's an interesting topic for discussion and probably worth it's own thread. There's a community called the Third Tribe that describes the difference between Internet Marketers and those who "feel dirty" using affiliate links and tries to propose a middle ground.

[Clinton]

Thanks for the suggestion, Luke, I've split the thread. And thanks for the link to the Third Tribe. I had a read. To my cynical eye it looks like that whole "middle way" between scammy marketing and non-profit is just ...a marketing ploy in itself but it was cool to see how they tried to distinguish themselves and then charge money for what looks like old JAM material (Just Another Marketing).

What do others think? And where do you draw the line between scammy, middle ground and "pure community spirit"? Am I way wrong in my views on the Third Tribe?

I'm hoping the veterans around here who lurk more than post - you know who you are - will join and make this a very interesting thread i.e show the community spirit

[Andy]

Hi Clinton,

I admire your resolve and I've come to believe you are one of the most honorable and credible people I've come in contact with. Would I think any less of you if you recommended something and offered an affiliate link? No.

I don't think getting paid for your time and effort makes you less honorable. There are some people for whom this is not true, but you are not one of them in my book.

As for affiliate marketing in general, consider someone who has a product for sale. For simplicity's sake, lets say an ebook.

The ebook is worth $20. For me, a 50% profit is reasonable and that is what I base my advertising on. If I offer my ebook in a ppc ad, I don't want to spend more than $10 to get the sale. What possible difference is it to me if I spend $10 in advertising or give $10 to an affiliate who sold the product for me?

Granted that scenario scoots across all those folks with no conscience at all who will market anything for a buck. Again, that is human nature and I won't buy anything from people like that if I can help it.

Anyway that's the way I see it.

Andy

[Clinton]

That's very kind, thanks Andy. But here's the rub: part of the reason why you believe I'm "honorable and credible" is possibly because I've never tried to sell you anything. Once I taint our relationship by trying to make money out of you, I start eroding that trust. Not immediately, but it will happen over time. And what about people who don't already know and trust me? At least some of them would suspect that the recommendation is not completely with their best interests at heart.

When you know someone has expertise in a subject you can trust their knowledge but it should not automatically follow that you trust their honesty. There are plenty of "experts" around, IMHO, who've built a reputation for expertise in a subject and who make money from smooth talking naive masses into confusing expertise and integrity: "I'm the expert, you know you can trust me, click this link, pay the $37 and it will reveal secrets/make you rich/get you laid"

[tke71709]

Is Sitepoint technically a US or an Australia based company?

[Andy]

That's very kind, thanks Andy. But here's the rub: part of the reason why you believe I'm "honorable and credible" is possibly because I've never tried to sell you anything.

Clinton,

No. I disagree. You are honest because you are honest. Otherwise I'd have to believe you are basically corrupt and only your stubborn resistance to offering anything via an affiliate link keeps you honest. :-)

If I may offer an outlandish example: an alcoholic is an alcoholic whether s/he drinks or not. Drinking does not change the nature of the person.

On the other hand I understand your point.

Most people seen to believe in "shades" of honesty. They don't lie, they "fudge" the truth. I recently had a disagreement with a psychiatrist who maintains lying is a "social skill".

To this end I take all endorsements with a grain of salt. Yes, I do grant more credibility to any endorsement offered without an affiliate link. But the judgment of the person is on the line either way.

If the product does not perform as the person who recommended it says it does and s/he made money from the recommendation, then this does taint my view of that person's integrity.

On the other hand there seems to be a growing mood that suggests anyone who "sells" anything is "slimy". Or "profit" is a dirty four-letter word.

Again, I'll grant you, too many people will say anything to make a sale. And too many other people are swayed by salespeople like that. But rather than use this as an excuse to use some sort of "literary license" in sales materials, I contend this is the very reason marketers need to be totally above board in their efforts.

I think there is still room in this world for honest people to offer honest value for an honest profit. I think there is still honor in honest salesmanship.

While I really wish I could read a sales letter, believe what it says and make a decision based on whether the product or service offered meets my reasonable expectations, this is often not the case at all. Often I am left relying on what someone else says about it for my decision. As such I look for people who have built a reputation as a straight shooter. I don't ask for perfect judgment just a knowledgeable opinion. A decent person will share that knowledge whether or not they get paid to do so.

Andy

[Clinton]

On the other hand there seems to be a growing mood that suggests anyone who "sells" anything is "slimy".

LOL, I didn't realise there was a growing mood on this

I don't think they are slimy - well, not all - but I absolutely detest having to sell anything. There are members here who are very good at it, but I've spent a lot of time (and probably lost a lot of money) building for myself an income that relies on passive money flows rather than chasing a sale. In fact, I did that even before I got into websites and when I was running a B&M business in a very competitive industry. I made sure our company built kick-ass computers that won numerous awards and we made a big deal of the fact that we never knowingly sold anything, that we only took orders. We even had a tip sheet on the website on how to get your order accepted. Maybe a bit arrogant, but we kept it exclusive and had a queue of people for our $5,000 PCs. All that effort to avoid the act of convincing people to buy.

But I've said too much and possibly scared off the sales people on the forum from chipping in with their opinions! Please go ahead, guys, I'm an odd ball, don't go by anything I say! Tell us what you see as scammy and what you see as stupidly puritanical. No offence taken

tke71709, they're registered in Australia, aren't they? But I don't believe that even the new FTC rules in the US have any problem with recommending products using openly declared affiliate links...or do they?

[mgallone]

but we kept it exclusive and had a queue of people for our $5,000 PCs

Heh- For some reason that just reminds me of that South Park episode where Cartman buys a theme park exclusively for his own personal use, but due to the costs of keeping people out has to eventually let people in to pay for new staff, and the park becomes a massive success and he is heralded as a business genius... but I digress.

I agree with what seems to be common theme on these boards- the days of hard selling are coming to an end. I think (and I may be biased here) that there is nothing wrong with building a site with good content relating to a subject, and then suggesting affiliate retailers who provide the product. The users aren't forced to buy, they can simply enjoy the content, and if they wish to explore further, follow the links.

It certainly seems like a hot topic, and I shall follow with interest.