Internet Marketing - What's scammy, what's ethical and what's middle ground?

[Clinton]

If the product does not perform as the person who recommended it says it does and s/he made money from the recommendation, then this does taint my view of that person's integrity.

So? Why should he care? You are expendable, you've served your purpose. As long as there's a steady flow of punters who'll trust his recommendation his interests are better served cultivating his public image as an expert rather than trying to secure your private approval as a friend.

And these people succeed. In a big way. For example, take testimonials. Customers, yes customers now see it as okay to fake testimonials! They see testimonials as just part of the page decoration. Most sales letters have fake testimonials and both sides seem to accept that it's normal and legitimate. I was talking to a group of marketers and they were appalled at my how clueless I was when I brought up the subject of getting real customer testimonials. I'd be interested in others' opinions on fake testimonials. And is it okay if the target customers are likely aware they are fake? There's no deception there, right?

mgallone, thanks for that Southpark story - I love it You really think hard selling is dying out? Others seem to think so too. How come? Is it because marketers are switching to using psychology and sneakier methods of parting customer from money?

[LukeMoulton]

... I absolutely detest having to sell anything. There are members here who are very good at it, but I've spent a lot of time (and probably lost a lot of money) building for myself an income that relies on passive money flows rather than chasing a sale.

So does your website buying criteria match this resolve Clinton? Does that mean that you limit yourself to high traffic sites monetized with AdSense (for example)?

This could lead into an interesting discussion on sales vs marketing.

[mgallone]

You really think hard selling is dying out? Others seem to think so too. How come? Is it because marketers are switching to using psychology and sneakier methods of parting customer from money?

I do. I think it has something to do with the general shift in consumer perceptions of a product in the modern world, and the shift is quite noticeable in T.V and print advertising over the past decade or two, the internet just seems to be catching up
Gone are the days (apart from the occasional ironic ad) when adverts/commercials would simply list- or force down the viewer/reader's throat, the features of a prodct, repeating a 'hook' and repeating the name of the product. Even jingles seem to have died a death.
Now, the most succesful ad campaigns are those that are clever. Not so much 'sneaky', though some admittedly are, but ones with something that draws the focus away from the fact that it is an advertisment, only selling the product at the last minute. I'll refer to the now classic compare the market ads for an example of this. That Meerkat must be more talked about than the company itself, but it's slogan and repetition must have generated millions of hits to the website, and shed loads of additional revenue. Going back a bit further, I also remember the P.G Tips adverts with the chimps- you remember the chimps first, then the P.G tips- but it generates a huge amount of buzz around the product.

I think, as well, that people in today's society are more open to 'soft sell' techniques anyway. Campaigns that seem to empathise with the customer often do well, and the only hard sell ads that I can think of are those irritating 'Sue Everyone for Everything'- which, to be fair, operate in a market where aggresion is perhaps a key selling point.

My point is (and I realise I've taken an age to make it) that the hard sell has long had it's day offline, and the online world is starting to mirror that. Long sales letters pale in terms of potential to a well constructed passive advertising site, and I honestly believe that this is the way of the future.

[Clinton]

Luke, good question. There was a time when most if not all my online income came from Adsense. It was far more than I needed to live on, but I didn't like the excessive reliance on a single source and for a long while I avoided Adsense sites in favour of other passive streams. Today Adsense is the primary monetising on sites like experienced-people.co.uk, but Adsense constitutes less than a third of my income. The rest is a mix of contributions from people who've found use in something I've put together, royalties/licence fees on intellectual property, people approaching me to buy advertising, leads generated (more below) etc.

I don't limit myself to any particular type of website as long as it's a good "business" (within some boundaries). If I find a site that sells product and has a complete management team in place that doesn't require me to write sales copy or pick up a phone and cold call customers, I'm fine with it. I see it as akin to buying shares on the stock market. Maybe I'm not against marketing and I'm against doing what I have neither the inclination nor apptitude for

Today within my portfolio I have a network of finance sites that generate leads for the insurance, credit card and mortgage markets. Very few industries are more competitive than these but I don't do any of the selling. The sites get traffic from various sources, provide some information on a subject and offer a form to people who want a quote. The form goes to a broker who pays me at the end of the month. At $30-$100 a lead, it's not a bad looking cheque every 30 days.

mgallone, I worry about this new form of selling. Sure, there are some good guys, but marketing has become too sophisticated and far too slick. They use different tactics on different segments to optimise their return - carefully targeted at the identified vulnerabilities in each segment. They have experts on the payroll with psychology and behaviour PhDs. They fund research into how to make our children "good consumers". I find all this scary. Maybe there'll come a time when we reminisce about the good old days of hard selling.

Yeah, I'm a glass half-empty kinda guy!

[mgallone]

I guess it all comes down to how you view the practice of marketing in general.
Me, I think more targeted marketing is a good thing, as products are aimed at people who are more likely to want them- which saves a lot of wasteage on the part of the seller, and a lot less irrelevant advertising directed at the consumer. At the end of the day, it is always the consumer's choice whether or not to purchase something. Sure, that decision can be influenced by product placement or smart advertising, but it is still personal choice.

[Andy]

@ mgallone,

Thank You! I was beginning to think I was turning into some sort of conspiracy theorist or something.

It seems to me a lot of folks toss a lot of related but totally different issues into the mix. "Hype" is the catch-all term for sales letters dressed in plaid. Even the term "hard sell" I think is often used wrongly. To me a hard sell asks for the order and the order is asked for after the value is established. I've seen so-called "hard sells" where the seller says ANYthing to get the sale.

Wayback when, there was a young man in our office who was extraordinarily successful. Some said it was his innocent baby face. Others said it was because he was so likable. While both were true, I still had to ask what he thought. He just shrugged his shoulders and said "I just tell them whatever they want to hear." I could not do that.

In any case, I believe if marketers across the board would simply tell it like it is without "stretching" the truth, we would all enjoy a much healthier relationship with our prospects and customers.

@ Clinton - I sure wish I could've seen your B&M in operation! It looks like you had an excellent "sales" model.

Andy

[Andy]

mgallone

I totally missed your subsequent comments.

About:"Long sales letters pale in terms of potential to a well constructed passive advertising site, and I honestly believe that this is the way of the future."

I think the process has become longer. Eventually these links lead to a sales page. Somehow, someplace, someone has to click on an "order" button. I won't debate long or short copy - both have their place, but I will say that things have changed from directing prospects to a sales page to leading them to drink via a series of steps - a process.

Copywriting legend Gary Halbert used to say he'd take a good list over great sales copy any day of the week. He knew the importance of the audience for his copy. If you're dying of thirst do you really care if the water bottle says "drawn from a mountain spring" or "yanked from a mud puddle and strained with grandma's shorts"?

Clinton made a point earlier, not sure where, but he said a lot of people LIKE to be sold. Well, I'd like to meet those people. I think most these days want opportunities to buy but plenty DO want to buy.

Andy

[Clinton]

Andy, the B&M stopped trading many years ago. Well, it stopped supplying PCs to the public but stayed open to honour warranties etc. If you're interested, the website is still in operation and you can see what used to be the "sales page" here. Turnover of the company was in the seven figure range when I decided to close shop and make a living from websites instead.

Me, I think more targeted marketing is a good thing, as products are aimed at people who are more likely to want them

Fair enough. But does it work in practise? At some point won't the temptation creep in to expand the customer base, to increase number of people who are likely to want the product?

I like your ideal of marketers not stretching the truth, but how do you compete in a market where all your competitors have no such scruples? To continue making a living you have no choice but to join them.

LukeMoulton, my turn to ask you something. How is your online income broken up? Rough percentages would do And would you like to see it change?

[Andy]

So? Why should he care? You are expendable, you've served your purpose. As long as there's a steady flow of punters who'll trust his recommendation his interests are better served cultivating his public image as an expert rather than trying to secure your private approval as a friend.

And these people succeed. In a big way. For example, take testimonials. Customers, yes customers now see it as okay to fake testimonials! They see testimonials as just part of the page decoration. Most sales letters have fake testimonials and both sides seem to accept that it's normal and legitimate. I was talking to a group of marketers and they were appalled at my how clueless I was when I brought up the subject of getting real customer testimonials. I'd be interested in others' opinions on fake testimonials. And is it okay if the target customers are likely aware they are fake? There's no deception there, right?

You are probably right. They don't care. I do. As more and more people network around the 'net this may come back to bite them. It may not. I'm not going to waste my time or wring my hands about such things as I believe we all will account for our actions. If I'm wrong, so what? I'm living a life I'm comfortable with.

About fake testimonials. Maybe "everybody" does it. I don't. Never have, never will. And I will never allow my sales copy to knowingly be used by someone if they falsify any part of it. I'll raise a stink and if that doesn't work, I'll turn them in. I want no part of ethical or illegal activity and I will not have my good name smeared like that. Again it all goes to integrity. I like to think mine is intact.

I am not alone. There are other marketers who won't falsify themselves for a buck. It's sad to think how much of a minority we are. I wonder if we qualify for government money?

[Andy]

Andy, the B&M stopped trading many years ago. Well, it stopped supplying PCs to the public but stayed open to honour warranties etc. If you're interested, the website is still in operation and you can see what used to be the "sales page" here. Turnover of the company was in the seven figure range when I decided to close shop and make a living from websites instead.

Clinton,

You did something like what I always wanted to do. Long ago I considered building high-end high quality computers. Never got around to it. I like your approach, thanks for the inside look.

Andy