Great article on the IM Guru business

[KenW3]

I don't take everything I read as absolute truth. I'm not defending any of those guys, but I start to become leery of sources like Salty Droid as well because the success of his site is dependent on continuing to find juicy stories on fraud. Things start to blur after a while.

I would love to see a "good guy list" of proven honest people as well. It's great to know who/what to avoid (if you believe it), but it would be great to know who/what to use as well.

I completely agree with this post! The same problem happens here on EP. Bombastic posts without solutions may sooth the need to vent anger, but unless solutions and alternatives are provided, the demographic will be drawn to these offers. Any tirade without specific proof is a warning quickly forgotten, as it is unsupported and credibility does not exist.

I had no idea there was a company preying on n00bs through a boiler room. That is repugnant. The promise of wealth, and sales based upon an appeal to greed, deserve to be prosecuted due to fraudulent claims. Without these claims, however, are sales of this material wrong? Who should be teaching others how to make money on the internet? Where is the 'good guy', safe for n00b consumption, list?

For people new to making money on the net, I always just recommend reading everything and suggest 'Do not spend any money learning' until you have an understanding of the industry.

[akirk]

If you're going to discuss that long article, then I'm with Danny on this one. Internet Marketing is defined (black and white) as scamming on the Internet. Their only defence of that gross mis-statement is that they're using capitals to define the topic they're talking about. In fact they're describing an infinitesimal fraction of the marketing that takes place on the Internet. It's a good article on what they're talking about, but their topic is not Internet Marketing, it's just about scamming.

It's parallel to the discussion that all marketing is bad. Some of the population thinks so. However they have in mind a fraction of marketing that most of us would deplore.

Valid points - but I think that the concept of Internet Marketing is exactly what is being referred to - most of us would discribe normal marketing (but on the internet) as just Marketing - whereas Internet Marketing has a fairly specific meaning now... One of the points I often make on here - and elsewhere (which is very much in line with your comment) is tht business on the internet is just business - the internet is but a tool... however there is a group of people who sell Internet Marketing - and a group of people who wish to buy it - a generalisation might see it as wannabe get rich quick folk - and those willing to supply their dream, but not much more... it has as much to do with real business as selling the Eiffel Tower / the Pyramids or Brooklyn Bridge!

I am a fairly big believer in the fact that any business which has to spend its time continually telling you how amazing it is and how you will be rich by following these easy three steps... has no real business credential - it is a scam... (generalising again!) - ultimately we would all accept that normal marketing is just normal marketing - whether on a billboard / Tv or the internet - so the phrase Internet Marketing does now have currency as a specific approach / pseudo-business sector...

Alasdair

[Clinton]

I would love to see a "good guy list" of proven honest people as well.

Sorry, but that's a horrible idea. There are people I've thought were good guys but who had even me fooled and who are now engaged in domain scams or selling dubious programs that'll apparently teach you how to make millions from opportunities they claim are hot but which I know don't exist.

The solution isn't to make judgments on who are the good guys and the bad guys, but to call all the bad guys out and get their typical victims to see where the flaws in the arguments are. You could extend to providing solid, unbiased and useful advice but that has less impact. The bad guys have the savvy and the finances to keep attracting the more vulnerable. Arm the victims to see for themselves, don't just tell them that you can provide a better view!

[KenW3]

Sorry, but that's a horrible idea. There are people I've thought were good guys but who had even me fooled and who are now engaged in domain scams or selling dubious programs that'll apparently teach you how to make millions from opportunities they claim are hot but which I know don't exist.

And that is one of the key filters n00bs need to learn. Any statements claiming they will make money, even if the program is only suggesting they will earn $10 a day, is structured as a scam. A favorite claim to invoke trust is a statement that the seller does not offer a get rich program, as buyers will only earn a minimal amount of money, but can grow. Even programs that appeal to a work ethic may be useless. Of course, any educational program that contains an appeal to greed is guaranteed to be a scam.

The solution isn't to make judgments on who are the good guys and the bad guys, but to call all the bad guys out and get their typical victims to see where the flaws in the arguments are. You could extend to providing solid, unbiased and useful advice but that has less impact. The bad guys have the savvy and the finances to keep attracting the more vulnerable. Arm the victims to see for themselves, don't just tell them that you can provide a better view!

I disagree. This is only half of the help needed. Nobody, not even EP, can call out everybody. New scams arrive every week trying to take money from the naive.

Some people do not possess the time to learn what you suggest nor the business savvy to avoid the problem offers. So they search the net, find solid trusted information here that suggests what they have found could be a problem, and off they go looking for other answers. Their solution wasn't here. The demographic is not here looking to learn how to identify scams, they are looking for solutions to wants and needs based on different keywords.

This education suggested is the same problem in a different form, even if you provide it for free. Classes are sold to newbies, classes they cannot follow nor apply. Now you're suggesting they need to be taught something else. Nobody can save everyone from themselves. Some will learn the skills needed to recognise problem offers, some won't, but calling a scam a scam doesn't solve a need, it just sends the reader back out into the wilderness searching for a different solution that will likely be based on the same keywords designed to attract the same work-from-home or make-money-online demographic.

[grynge]

I think this is all part of life, that old proverb

..."a foole and his money is soone parted."

is very apt in this circumstance, it wouldn't even matter if there was an exact list of good and bad people in the world, people would still be ripped off. I feel sorry for those who do get ripped off, but if you are investing any amount of money that you can't afford to lose you should look very closely at what that investment entails.

The other problem I see is even legit businesses have customers that aren't happy so they scream to high heavens about that company being a scam. Even the most highly held people/companies have done some dubious things, so the list would eventually hold every person and every company in the world on it.

Now if you are crying about being classed in with the scam im'ers toughen up princess, just as every used car sales man is labelled a scammer, so taking money off people and giving them very little in return get expected to join that scam list. If you think "I am giving my hard earned thoughts on x subject a value of $xx" and only place that in a crappy pdf expect that somewhere along the line someone will say "what a rippoff that was" expect to be on someones shitlist at sometime. Stop sooking and grow a set.

[Clinton]

Some people do not possess the time to learn what you suggest nor the business savvy to avoid the problem offers.

If they have neither the time, nor any savvy, they aren't going to benefit from you providing them lessons.

As you say, we can't cater for everybody. Pointing out scams and explaining why they are scams arms those individuals who do have some savvy. They learn to recognise the DNA of an MMO scam and are therefore better positioned to not fall into the trap.

The demographic is not here looking to learn how to identify scams, they are looking for solutions to wants and needs based on different keywords.

Then we need to first convince them there are scams about and provide the advice they need to recognise the scams. Otherwise they have no way of recognising your lessons from the snake oil salesman who's promising to teach them how they can achieve the same results with a fraction of the time investment. Why should they value our lessons more than anybody else's?

Another protest from internet marketers @ searchenginewatch. The author Miranda Miller isn't doing too well in the comments section of this blog post

[KenW3]

http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/10/29...online-monster

A well written article that discusses the scams that are out there and exposes some of the biggest gurus in the IM industry.

If you read the Salty Droid then none of this will be new to you but if you are new to the IM industry then it's a must read.

A similar site to SaltyDroid.info is WarriorForumSucks.com first mentioned here, which has an article on the subject of this OP titled Frank Kern's Scamworld On The Verge Of Collapsing

It has a comment that suggests there were four threads started on the Warrior Forum about TheVerge.com article, and all four were censored. A search for discussion about this on the WF shows some threads do exist on this subject.

[elster]

make certain you are running a high quality antivirus program

Ken, out of curiosity, what do you consider a high quality antivirus program? May or may not be related but I used to trust companies like Zonealarm & Macafee, but now I think we just haven't seen the Wikileaks yet that expose these programs as backdoors for fed agencies to spy on you. Certainly the precedent is there. I'd love an open source antivirus/security tool and happy to pay/donate to one.

[bwelford]

I'd love an open source antivirus/security tool and happy to pay/donate to one.

But can you be sure it's had sufficient scrutiny to be trustworthy. Could there be a secret trap-door in there somewhere by which a malefactor could enter.

[Saul]

Notice that the article promotes a book by the author. I hate these articles as much as I hate scams. As far as I'm concerned they're one and the same, both seeking the same thing - to make a buck on people's fear. So the IM scammers exploit some fear and these "good guys" exploit the fear of scams often over exaggerating, which I think is the case in the article. I call BS.