I am sick of hearing of acquaintances who have closed their B&M businesses because Joe Bloggs and his wife keep coming in, taking up his time to view his stock and question him, then bugger off home to buy it 5% cheaper on the web.
Distance Selling Regulations do not help either, buyers know they can order as much as they want then return what the don't want for a full refund. I know the consumer needs some protection but this is killing the retailers
mikeb (July 5th, 2012)
My thoughts entirely.Originally Posted by Nidec
I'm very much like Clinton. I dislike being involved in the whole live sales process so much that, having moved out of a development lab to try life as a systems engineer in the field (to get away from an overcrowded southern England was one of the motives) I soon got myself assigned back to the development world for a spell at authoring manuals.
I understand the process, and I have great admiration for the best salesmen. While I was still a developer, I ended up working day & night searching for a problem concerning a mainframe communications adapter, that had caused occasional strange results in process monitoring applications in a Detroit car factory. (When I arrived, no-one knew it was a design bug in the hardware). The account rep introduced himself, and asked to be told as soon as I had established the cause of the problem. If it was not quickly fixable, he was going to have to procure alternative hardware in a hurry, for ten other sites as well as this one. He then got out of the way until I found the bug around 1 a.m. He thanked me and headed home to fix his central heating, which had failed. Anyone who has been in Detroit in January will have an idea what that meant.
However, when it comes to mass selling of branded goods - even £30,000 cars - I am quite happy to let the market sort itself out. If we end up losing the current system of main dealers with showrooms, either the distributors will develop a different way of doing live demos, accepting the cost directly on their own books, or they'll find that their profits are not affected because people aren't that concerned about test driving. Customers will encourage whatever suits them best, and the firms that provide it will thrive at the expense of the ones that don't.
I agree that customers may not understand the implications of the changes, but I doubt if that would stop them if they did. Out-of-town supermarkets have taken over from high street shops, which makes life more difficult for anyone who has no personal transport, but the little shops won't come back. They're no longer viable businesses. The new business opportunity (or social need, depending on your political views) may be in helping the people who can't easily use the shopping malls. Online shopping is only one of several approaches to that problem.
As mentioned several times above - the car is being bought from a dealer - a company with physical showrooms all over the country - lots of B&M operations...
at no point in the process has an internet site been used - this has nothing to do with the internet
a broker can be offline as much as online - think personal shopper!
The only person now not listening is yourselfas I have mentioned on several occasions above - I am taking the more expensive deal according to that salesman - i.e. if price was be all - I could have gone with his process of playing the customer and got a cheaper deal... the point I was making - entirely of relevance to this thread - is that by not listening to me when I said I wanted a one shot - best price on the table approach - not a negotiation / sales process - so he lost the deal - i.e. his salesmanship where he tried to a) first of all make more money out of me hoping I was gullible and then b) when losing the sale argued with me to lower the price and secure the deal - that is what lost him the sale...
This has nothing even remotely to do with internet / comparison sites / or undermining dealers - the car is coming from a mainstream dealer - one who listened to the customer's requirements (via my broker) and offered the best deal they could v. a salesman who had the customer in front of them but was arrogant enough to not listen...
Mike - I appreciate that you have some form of personal vendetta against online / internet businesses - I am amazed that you are on this forum! You thinkn that the country should all be stuck in some bizarre time warp with protectionism holding up businesses that otherwise fail to compete... On the other hand I believe that the responsibility of the business owner is to understand their market / see the trends / work out what the customer is wanting / move with the times / be flexible / etc. The internet is here to stay - shopping online will increase enormously... and yes it will mean that some B&M stores will close down - but I see no issue in that at all...
if we get to the point of no stores into which we can walk to view objects then the trend will reverse as an entrepreneurial online company will open viewing stores (a la argos catalogues in a bizarre twist!)
if online stores can offer the same / better products cheaper and still provide the service desired - then good for them...
as an example I bought some shoes for my Godson this week - the manufacturer no longer makes them - we went into a number of stores physically to find them - no luck - all the stores were dismissive / couldn't care less - apart from one fantastic sales lady who went to the trouble of finding out whether any were in stock across her chain of stores (unfortunately not) - I then found one pair in stock with an online store - they were fantastically helpful - checking the shoes / next day delivery (for which I paid) - no issues with returns / etc. who deserves the business? - the one with the item in stock and good customer service... (oh and they also have three physical shoe stores)
it is about customer service - selling in a way which is aware of the customer's desires - not about internet or not... the whole internet thing is a total fallacy - internet is just one way of displaying items...
- is it any different to Argos where you don't see the items before buying them?
- is your example ref. the climbing harness any different to my going into one store and spending an hour trying them on - and then going into the store next door where they are 25% cheaper and buying that - nothing to do with internet - totally to do with business model etc.
we live in a world where price is an important factor - and yet there is also room for higher prices and higher service - it is up to the business to find those models... they exist - the fact that a business fails is more often lack of business skill than anything else...
Alasdair
Of course this is all about different strokes for different folks. For some buying online is their preferred way of doing it. Others like to visit the physical facility so that they can pick up all the vibes that are possible when you see the product as described by a given salesperson.
This 'different strokes' approach is most evident when you come to price. Some will scour the highways and byways for the best price. Others accept that going to a trusted supplier may mean on average the price is higher but that is what floats their boat.
For any business, the important decision is what proportion of your business comes from these different types. You may choose to neglect some since it does not fit with your overall marketing strategy.
Last edited by bwelford; July 6th, 2012 at 8:34 AM. Reason: typo
Chabrenas (July 6th, 2012)
There's a lot of excellent debate here. I'm only sorry I have time to get tidbits here and there.
Clinton, in my world, the world that almost totally agrees with Lawhon, you would only be a customer if you wanted to be a customer. If you came into my place of business, my only would be for you to leave satisfied. If that meant getting out of your way and letting you buy what you want, then so be it but, in that case you would not actually BE a customer because you apparently would not allow me to determine whether what I had to offer would best meet your needs -- all of your needs, not just those you have already identified.
And that is okay with me. There are plenty of people who can and do benefit from the assistance of a professionally competent salesperson. At this moment, many, many more people than there are such salespeople to go around.
Lawhon relates another story that may make this point.
A fellow goes to the doctor and says he wants to be castrated. The doctor says, "Sorry I can't do that." The patient tells him if he doesn't he'll find someone who will. So the doctor agrees.
After the operation the patient is wheeled into a room where another patient is already settled in. "What are you in for?" he asks. "Circumcision" is the reply. The man snaps his fingers "Circumcision! THAT'S the word!"
I'm not saying this happens in real life, but all too often a customer KNOWS what s/he wants until someone starts digging a bit deeper to determine what s/he NEEDS. That is the job of a competent salesperson.
Andy
If I haven't identified it, I don't need it. To believe otherwise is arrogance, condescension and greed.because you apparently would not allow me to determine whether what I had to offer would best meet your needs -- all of your needs, not just those you have already identified.
Your castration patient example is a good example of the trite sales people trot out to justify their existence. While it makes for an amusing story, it's not the patient's limited vocabulary that lost him his penis, it's his inability to properly investigate the product/service prior to availing of it. If he could go back in time he'd be better served by becoming smarter than by finding a salesman. For all you know, if he went via the salesman route the salesman may have convinced him he "needed" a castration!
Sales people are useful guides for the IQ challenged (and the IQ challenged pay a hefty price for their "service"). The rest of us would manage very well if every single sales person in the world got exterminated tomorrow.
Show your support - Like us on Facebook
Maybe what we need is to replace salesmen with knowledgemen (TM)If I haven't identified it, I don't need it. To believe otherwise is arrogance, condescension and greed.
Your castration patient example is a good example of the trite sales people trot out to justify their existence. While it makes for an amusing story, it's not the patient's limited vocabulary that lost him his penis, it's his inability to properly investigate the product/service prior to availing of it. If he could go back in time he'd be better served by becoming smarter than by finding a salesman. For all you know, the salesman may have convinced him he "needed" a castration!
Sales people are useful guides for the IQ challenged (and the IQ challenged pay a hefty price for their "service"). The rest of us would manage very well if every single sales person in the world got exterminated tomorrow.
the very concept of salemen is to make a sale - and Clinton is correct - the consumer is the one who should be in charge of making the decision whether there is a sale or not...
however the concept of knowledgemen is those expert in their subject (we can't all be expert in everything) who are there to share their knowledge... nothing to do with a sale - but everything to do with the process of matching product and customer most aptly... no intelligent consumer will object to sharing / acquiring of knowledge - but there is everything to dislike in being sold to...
I delight in relationships where someone is clearly expert in what they do - where it saves my having to become expert before making a decision - especially if a one-off decision / rare decision... that is what time and skill management is about - using the skills etc. of others to maximise your own opportunity to deploy your skills / etc.
so knowledgemen yes salesmen no...
Alasdair
Agreed. As long as he is getting no compensation from any of the sellers and the sole payment for his time and expertise is from me.
Independent financial advisors, for example. If you find a truly independent one who gets no kickbacks from anywhere and has no financial incentive to recommend one product over the other, pay him for his time and expertise in guiding you to the right investment product/life insurance/other complex financial solution. The problem is that most people are so "smart" that they'd rather pay £1,000 indirectly via commissions they don't see than £500 up front in cash for knowledge/impartial advice.
Show your support - Like us on Facebook
You can bold this car is being bought from a dealer and highlight it all you like and it makes no difference to how you are screwing the system - let me explain how your parasite broker model works - I am sure you know, but it seems I need to make it explicit..
1/Since you did not deny I will presume you test drove and/or looked at the vehicles and/or discussed models with the dealer, as people like you invariably do - that means you rely on such garages with cars to exist.
2/ So Dealer A has stock, a showroom and staff - and took the time to show you the car. A service which costs.
3/ You then pick a car - That needs a minimum margin per car to sustain, and on that basis "dealer A" quoted you - the price he needs to maintain the service..
3/ You go to your destructive parasite broker who rings dealer B, C and D, and tells them what price he wants. He pitches a price above the buying price of the dealer (say £200 margin) , but well below the price needed to cover the overheads (say £500 margic) (you already got that price from Dealer A - the actual cost of the service you used - but you refused to pay it.
4/ He says to dealer B, C, D - you do not have to do anything to sell the car, and this is an extra customer, so all margin is extra margin, that means if you sell to my client it is an extra £100 you would not have got otherwise. In the climate of internet parasites (and even worse - "brokers") One of the dealers will be desperate enough to take it, just to make vehicle quotas. Since few of the people they show the cars buy them.
5/ The useless parasite does the deal then takes £100 for his "commission" out of the £200 broker margin- leaving the dealer only £100 - not even the £200 implicit in the deal. Taking half for what?
6/ Now if this was a genuine extra gross margin that would be fine.
It is not. Because all people with your mentality (most) take the test drive and overheads of dealer A yet look at the internet or parasite brokers, so the dealers rarely if ever sell vehicles at the gross margin needed to cover overheads. With the parasite screwing the same margin, with none of the overheads , the motor trade is in even worse shape.
7/ The original dealer told you the truth - he cannot sell vehicles at the margin you ask - and he told you the price the service you wanted actually cost.. But since you forced him, he grudgingly came down to a price below the £200 (after all , your broker is screwing margin) so he can sell at £150 and still make more than he would if he dealt with your parasite broker - who is simply sucking money out of the industry..
8/ So sure "it came from a dealer" but you , personally have contributed to killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
Did you read what I said? Dealer insolvencies are increasing exponentially - up 25% last quarter alone. And that can only get worse.
So - please? if you want to use these parasites, then go with the courage of your own convictions and DONT TEST DRIVE THE CARS/ LOOK AT THEM ON A FORECOURT, OR WASTE A DEALERS TIME - because if you do you are cheating the dealer. Just buy sight unseen - which is the price of the service you want to buy.
This is being repeated all across the retail world. Try it one place, buy it elsehwere, and in my view the purchasers who do it are dishonest. See the anecdote at the climbing shop - the ones who did the sale right are dealer A and that climbing shop.
The ones who cheated are the customers. (my nephew in that instance demanding an internet price for a non internet sale)
I know how the model works, and how the brokers and internet discounters are making the dealers they rely on insolvent. True parasites.
Not saprophytes as they would claim to be.
So Don't take delight in it Alasdair - or pretend it is "clever" . It is simply not fair on the dealers
Sure you got your price. Be content with that - not the lame hindsight justification, that simply does not stack up.
Soon enough there will be very few dealers there to show you the cars.
And you - more specifically that parasite broker - will have contributed to that demise.
Last edited by mikeb; July 6th, 2012 at 11:52 AM.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks